Where are the trans men?

[BlueandPinkSwan]

Just that really, we are always hearing about men wanting to 'become women'. Phycially, mentally and emotionally impossible, but why aren't women rushing to do the same thing in reverse?
Just interested to know as I'm gender critical, and hate the patriarcal society we live in.
Is it because men wouldn't accept it as a trans man being part of their tribe but women are forced to put up with trans women invading /trying to enter into woman only spaces?

Exactly the majority of trans people I know lead very normal lives, and generally keep to themselves in day to day life. I don’t blame them for showing out protest either with how backwards this country has gone and i have joined the recent protests in Manchester to support them 👏

sick of hearing from other women how I should be scared of trans women in xyz scenario. im not. I was assaulted by men who clearly still identified as men, and my case was thrown out because of “lack of evidence”. I’m scared of MEN not trans people, and I’m scared of the judicial system that lets men get away with all sorts while telling me I should be scared of trans women instead

If you are a woman and have short hair, are not interested in flowers or don't apply make up then you are a trans man. As evidenced by the transing of anyone from history who had short hair or tried to do some science.

I think it’s more subtle than that. There are plenty of trans identifying young women. And were told the explosion in their numbers simply represents more awareness and acceptance and is definitely not social contagion/self harm/internalised homophobia/ a manifestation of their autism.

which begs the question, where are all the late transitioning women? We hear about plenty of middle aged men who realise their authentic self is a woman, but almost zero middle aged women do the same. If the youth figures are the true proportion of trans men, then where are all the middle aged TIFs?

weird, huh?

I also know one personally.

There are loads of them but they are a completely different cohort from the majority of men who transition.

They are overwhelmingly very young and tend to be same sex attracted and/or autistic and/or have been abused. This is the other terrible effect on women's rights from gender identity ideology - what it is doing to girls and young women, especially lesbians.

There are roughly the same number of both in the UK but less of a moral panic about trans men. see www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/articles/genderidentityageandsexenglandandwalescensus2021/2023-01-25

It is weird, because if you wanted to completely change the hormonal profile of your body, menopause would seem the ideal time.

Im sorry to see you were assaulted and had no justice either. Disgusting.

I have had so many conversations on here about TW and I have to say always been spoken to respectfully. I do understand the frustration women feel and fear of sharing spaces with biological men. I get it, it’s quite new for many women and worse there are men who are predatory in nature and will take advantage. And Im often asked here how can women spot a fake TW, so predatory male dressed in women’s clothes and I don’t have an answer for that, unfortunately. But I do know that some of the most abusive men, some of the most prolific offenders are wearing disguises of being respected community members. They’re your fathers, husbands, brothers and sons. And you may never know or you may even be a victim to them yourself. The issue isn't TW for me, it’s a small minority of men who will use trans as a weapon to abuse. And what these men are doing is allowing women to tear each other to shreds, not even TW, cis/natural/women women on the others views and creating this massive divide. When women should unify and agree we don’t care if we’re raped by a man wearing a dress, a man wearing a suit, we simply don’t want to be raped. If we could fight for our rights with as much passion to simply not be raped in toilets by anyone, that would be terrific.

Once again, Im sorry to hear of your experience. I was also raped by a man and whilst I agree there will be predators who will abuse women’s spaces to rape us, I ultimately was going to be raped by that man, regardless of what he was wearing and had he have worn lipstick and heels, I’d have (personally, not speaking for anyone but me here) not felt any more violated than I was by him wearing a tracksuit.

I wish you the best on your journey of recovering from your attack.

I absolutely agree. There are some hideously sick trans women online, so GC people tar ALL trans women with the same brush - they’re all perverted rapists who are desperate to encroach on women’s toilets. When in actual fact most are too scared of GC women to ever dream of attempting to use a woman’s toilet.

And I know more trans men than I do trans women. But people tend not to become hysterical about them because they don’t mind sharing a toilet with them.

I’m sorry but even if there were small pockets of men pretending to be trans women, it doesn’t justify the way trans women get spoken about here or in the wider discussion, nor is it something I’m worried about going to the toilet. Trans women are less than 1% of the population, so any “men pretending to be trans women” is going to be even lower.

The reality is men don’t need to pretend to be trans women to attack us, they certainly aren’t going through HRT or public ridicule from bigots in order to do it. They’re just everyday men hiding in plane sight. You’re more likely to be attacked by a man in your own home than you are a trans women or “man pretending to be trans”

im sorry but women who spend their whole time spouting off about where trans women go to the toilet or seek help for domestic abuse themselves is so so wrong and gives men a free pass whilst we scapegoat yet another minority of people. It’s so so wrong.

Are they?

I don't personally know any trans women but I do know a number of trans men or non binary persons that were assigned female at birth. There is an Emmerdale character that plays the part of a trans man that was assigned female at birth!

I guess men care less about who is in their "space" than women do so trans men are just going about their business,

They are women so naturally we hear from them less. They were socialised as girls and women (because they were/are) and as a group, never learned to make demands or advocate for themselves very well.

They also feel less comfortable making threats of physical violence and being violent. See also pissing all over the street in "protest".

Isn't it always the way with every aspect of life that when men are doing or wanting a thing, they make a lot more fuss about it and attract a lot more attention than when women do or want similar? Its entirely in keeping with the norms that TW are all over the place and TM are largely invisible, unless they can be made use of to facilitate TW.

Exactly this.

Plus men have never had to fight for their spaces. So they're pretty complacent and relaxed about it.

When women should unify and agree we don’t care if we’re raped by a man wearing a dress, a man wearing a suit, we simply don’t want to be raped. If we could fight for our rights with as much passion to simply not be raped in toilets by anyone, that would be terrific.

Exactly. So we need to keep all men out of all women's single sex spaces (not just toilets!), including the men who say they are women.

Extraordinary the number of MNers who know “loads” of trans people, given that by all accounts they are a teeny tiny minority. Even the fucked-up ONS figures have them as less that 0.1% of the population, don’t they? But yet they all know an MNer 🙄.

As others have said, women who ID as trans are not a threat to men in the way men are to women. But it’s noticeable that among children, it’s predominantly girls these days, whereas middle-aged women rarely seem to have a road to Damascus moment when they realise they’ve been a man all along.

There are young straight women who identify as gay men and who are starting to encroach on gay men's spaces. The men don't like it because it kills the mood.

Some of these young women join Grindr where they are preyed upon by straight men who have joined specifically to seek them out.

I can’t relate to what people on here are saying really. I know lots of transmen,far far more than transwomen. I guess it’s the industry I work in . I do feel they’re a threat, albeit a subtle policy changing force rather than a physical threat. Most of the transmen i’ve encountered have been highly academic people who’ve embraced transitioning with the same evangelical attitude as someone who has discovered a new diet, and therefore are intent and borderline obsessed with the world changing to accommodate them. They purposefully and persistently infiltrate every organisation with their requirements. These policy changes work both ways and ultimately affect woman more than men. I personally feel dragged under the bus by trans men who have opted out of being women and now try to erode women’s rights in the process .
Aside from this the surgery is brutal with extreme risks.

I think it may depend on where you live/work.

I live a few miles from Brighton, which I'm told has a trans community that is above the national average per capita. And I work for an organisation that is shit hot on equalities issues and known to be a trans friendly employer.

It's entirely understandable that, as a result of the above factors, I'm likely to know more trans people than someone living in the Scottish highlands or a former steel and mining community in Wales.

I live in Manchester/Salford, it’s typically a city very welcoming and accepting of LGBTQ people and so attracts a lot of the trans community here for safety, not entirely out of the ordinary that we would know some trans people 🤷‍♀️

Well, I’m in London, work in a creative industry, and I don’t even know someone non-binary. I have seen a TIM in my local library (which is why teenage DD won’t be doing voluntary work there if there’s any chance she’ll be expected to share a toilet with a man). And I know an ex-colleague who is now a trans widow. But I don’t myself know anyone who’d call themselves trans, so I’m surprised. But perhaps that’s just reflective of those who’ve chosen to respond to this thread.

Absolutely, I didn't mean to imply they are harmless.

Stephen Whittle and James Morton are two notable examples who have done tremendous harm to women.

This thread title reminded me that Whittle once started a thread on MN:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3212371-Where-are-all-the-trans-men-An-Answer

Whereas female people are about 50% of the population and in some situations, not just physical but also social, professional and cultural, we face signifcantly different experiences, risks and challenges to male people because of our physical sex and the way our culture's mores and expectations are still shaped by the sexism of the past.

So we should be able to allowed to sometimes define ourselves by our sex, as people who share the same needs because of our sex instead of people who all the same sort of mixed sex hand wavy gender/personality type.

It should not be controversial to say that since we face sexism because of our sex, and sexual assault because of our sex, and bear a higher physical, social and often economic cost of raising children because of our sex, we have the moral right to mitigate these things.

And it should not be controversial that at times that can include saying we only want to compete in sports with people of the same sex, or we only want to be touched for intimate treatment or care by someone the same sex, or we only want to be counseled or supported by someone of the same sex, or we only want to be in spaces we are partially clothed or otherwise in a state men are known to fetishise with someone of the same sex, or we want to create a professional support network or training or one to one mentoring that is specific to our sex and the challenges of our sex to create opportunities for our sex.

And these things should not be considered to be somehow an act of hate or rejection of trans women because ultimately it's nothing to do with trans women and whatever they feel about themselves and what is fair to them, it's about what female people need and what is fair to us.

And if the rights trans people are asking for cannot allow for this, the problem is not with women, the problem is with what they are asking for.