To think we are hugely lucky to have been born in a time and place that is somewhat equal and somewhat free for women

[Fragmentedbrain]

And that women who come after us will decreasingly enjoy this status

Seriously, I'd love to hear arguments that this will extend in time and place

That's bullshit. So many men leave a marriage/relationship when the actual work of raising children is done (not by them). The children are at an age where they are happiest in front of a screen and suddenly decide 50/50 is the way to go, unimpeded by maintenance costs to the primary caregiver (who remains so even in the '50/50' arrangement).

Their career has flourished as they have done FA sacrificing of it, due to being the most important one, while the mum has taken days off for sick children, not gone for promotion for fear of losing flexibility.

You cannot blame a parent for the other parent stepping up, you can't play chicken with a dependent child. Less earning potential means less power in the relationship.

Too bloody right they're her children. I think everyone in the family knows how the land lies despite the concessions to 'equality' that primarily favour men financially in these situations.

Of course there are exceptions to the norm, but it very much remains the norm IME.

Class and wealth inequality are hugely important, I agree. But when we're considering sex inequality we can't compare the most privileged of women against the least privileged of men, we have to compare like for like. Poor working class people are without doubt hugely disadvantaged, but amongst that group women will experience greater disadvantage than men. One inequality doesn't cancel the other, it compounds it.

You've inferred from something I didn't say - something that you've assumed that I think, so you can go ahead and disagree with me.

Yes, theories on class have often ignored women. Some of the second wave feminists gave it an incredible shot at understanding the matrix of sex and class and the interplay between the two but only had a small window before they were superceded by feminist discourses that decended into relativism.

I think there is more divergence between class than sex in this country. That's not to say that women in each class don't have more barriers, obligations and burdens than men. In other countries this isn't the case, and being born a woman sets out the stall before class come in to play.

No - I didn't. I posed a question based on what you said. I am very interested in the interplay of sex and class, and how class indicators impact women more than men. I was just hoping for an interesting discussion, which your post provoked yet did not develop.

@5128gap thank you, those are excellent points, and I do think that all the theories of class struggle, and I include various regime's hierarchies in this, have excluded or marginalised women.
I've read many autobiographies of people in the Civil Rights and Anti Apartheid movements which bear this out.

You'll get comments here saying they've experienced oppression and setbacks from men.

Make the hard choice not to have children, and maybe not to marry even without children, and women’s lives become more equal to those of men. But still not equal.

I'm a working class woman. In some areas I feel my experience aligns more with working class men. In others with middle class women. It really depends on what area of my life I'm considering. However, my sex is fixed. I'll live and die a woman. I can't out earn it, educate myself out of it, gain male privileges by dint of hard work. I'm stuck with it for life, so I'd say it set my stall more than the social class I was born into.

Very good points.

Have you read Angela Davis' autobiography, @5128gap ? She discusses the intersectionality of race, sex and class, and is critical that women have remained overlooked and marginalised by men in various movements, I know she was a Marxist and refers to men she met in this context.

I think its more that we are better off than those who live in countries where girls are sold off to old men, where women have to cover head to toe in scorching hot weather, where they are not even allowed to talk to each other. These women are no less valuable, important or human than those women living in UK etc, but have much fewer rights. Not saying that things are anywhere near perfect here in UK, but it's vastly better than some other options. So yes I feel fortunate that myself and my girls live here, I feel fortunate that my Dad and husband carried/carry equal roles around housework, childcare etc with their wives, because the alternative is worse.

And I don't think male privilege carries as much weight in all areas as it used to. My husband is undeniably the most skilled and experienced in his team, but the head of division is a women, and she promotes other women over more capable men to 'balance historical injustice'. It has gone from a fairly equal male-female split at senior management to him being the only male at a senior level, through a combination of blocking opportunities and people leaving, bullying. But as a 40 something white heterosexual male he apparently cannot claim discrimation because he 'comes from a point of privilege'!

The trouble is, i think the extent of inequality and misogyny really becomes clear in pregnancy and motherhood. I think it is possible to live quite a 'charmed' life until that point.

I think it does, @Velvian , and I would also add attitudes to menstruation and menopause, which imo aren't sufficiently supported/allowances made for.
So many women and girls suffering from endometriosis and not getting adequate treatment.

Some of this does come with choices though. I chose a husband who is equally involved with household tasks and childcare, I chose to take actions which made me financially independent before marriage, and create an equal partnership. If anything I think I have the better deal, I was off on mat leave and got that precious time with our girls, I was able to go part time (completely my choice) and spend more time with them by choice.

I do see friends in very unequal partnerships and wonder why these amazing women chose fairly useless men - it was apparent during the dating period that their attitudes wouldn't create an equal partnership, they acknowledged this but went ahead in belief that they could change them. They could have made different choices, picked different men, and some have got divorced and moved into more equal relationships, and some have chosen to stay.

For as long as women put up with this rubbish, it will continue. That's not to say we are yo blame for it, men are wholly responsible for their own behaviour, but we can make choice to not accept it.

No we’re not ‘lucky’. Women were more than equal once. We are the ones who produce life, industriousness and the future - and men and male destruction should fottfsofawtgtfosm.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20g7j707g8o

I find your op has a tone of ‘put up and shut up because it could be worse’, op. Simple answer - No.

Yes I do feel lucky having lived in a country where women have less rights and society and religious morality still has a huge hold over woman and girls

That does not mean i feel we have not got room to improve we certainly to and its important to recognise that woman's experiences are not equal to all women in our society

It is not luck. It is blood and sweat that has gotten us these rights.

Its not a straightforward choice between a man who does his share and supports your equality versus one who doesn't, and that wise women pick the former.
I think that's a huge oversimplification that takes no account of the 'quality' of the pool of available men a woman who wishes to have children has to choose from, or allows for the fact that men can and do change with circumstances.
Yes, some women ignore obvious red flags. Sometimes because they've had little access to any other type of men so think it's the norm. Many more women don't see red flags because they're not unfurled at the stage where life is easy, responsibilities are few and there is little opportunity for a man's flaws to become apparant.
Every day on here I read posts from women who's partners don't pull their weight, behave badly, are abusive, cheat on them. I refuse to believe that everyone of these women failed to apply due diligence.
I also don't accept that if women were a bit stricter with them about what they'd put up with, men would suddenly improve like better trained dogs. If women refused to accept anything less than they deserve, you'd just have a lot more single people, not a lot more better men.

I haven't, but I will.Thank you for recommending it.

I think you're right but think there is a massively long way to go. I think women still take on much more than their fair share of childcare and this does hinder things like career progression and pension etc. I think if things don't improve then women will vote with their actions, and the birth rate will continue to drop. I also think there needs to be changes to the law with respect to absent fathers, for example paying nursery costs in the same ratio as wages on top of normal maintenance (if the mother works), and better investigation into non payment of maintenance by the self employed, otherwise women will continue to be forced out of work. It would also be good if the culture changed around coercive control eg though education so that more women recognise this behaviour is not OK.

I think maybe you're giving yourself too much credit for your choices. Choices are rarely free and dependent on the circles you move in and have access to, your financial situation, your age (particularly when it comes to reproduction).

How often do you challenge your friends' partners?

I actually worry for my children's generation. Especially my daughter. I'm talking late teens (DD) , mid 20s (DS). I fear things are actually moving backwards.

They've grown up/growing up in an era where social media, influencers, porn, plastic surgery etc are seen as things to aspire to. Obviously not all, but from an early age most girls will have a camera phone, 10 year olds are taking selfies, pouting, sharing, uploading believing that being sexualised is the norm.
Not enough parents are educating their daughters and sons about self acceptance, peer pressure, self esteem, the fight that women have gone through to be where they are today and that there's still a long way to go.
Unsupervised screen time, screen time for babies to keep them quiet. Mums in their early 20s having botox and fillers when without wanting like a right old mare, but back in my day (!) having cosmetic surgery was unheard of unless you were very rich or very famous. Even then it was usually a nose job.

I'm waffling. I'm going to shut up as having dizzy spell, but I know what I'm trying to say.

I don't think women are treated equally. In my workplace the men are definitely treated with more respect.

In my team, me and a man do the same job. If people want to ask a question to our department , they always ask him, not me.

Even if he is not working on the task at all. He is seen as the main person in out department. People forget about me as im a woman.

We work with a different team. In the team there is one man and two women. Lets call them ben, sarah and laura.

If anyone wants to ask that team something they always say "ask ben" or "find out ehat ben thinks". People forget that the women exist.

Laura on that team even told me once that her and ben had a meeting one time with another man.

Laura spoke at length to the man about something. The man heard the question, then ignored her and turned and directed his answer at Ben!

This, a million times. We're grateful that we're not treated QUITE as like shit as we were before.

E feel hugely priveleged when I see women swathed head to toe in cover up black, these days, and have it pinned onto their heads. They honestly look imprisoned and I’m so sorry that this has been done to them. It is such a blessing to be free from male tyranny.