To think there’s a real crisis in men being able to express how they truly feel about life and society?

[TheGentleSwan]

It feels like, in the West, men are struggling to be honest about their emotions, their frustrations, and how they view the world. Whether it’s societal pressure, fear of judgement, or just a lack of spaces to talk openly, it seems like many men keep things bottled up. AIBU to think this is a real issue?

I wonder how much of this is that a lot of men's emotional support avenues take the form of group activities, which we've made mixed-sex, because we didn't recognise that the activity was providing a form of emotional support which is sometimes best provided in a single-sex setting?

We are all (rightfully) up in arms if men try to come to a women's support group because we visually see the image of a bunch of chairs in a circle or a therapist talking to a patient as an emotional space which should be protected.

But there are always people complaining that, say, men's sheds aren't inclusive of women who enjoy carpentry.

You'll notice I said sexual assaults - also vast majority committed by men. Obviously rapes are male only.

All pregnancies aren't 'committed by women' though - pregnancy requires input from a man I think you'll find.

I see you struggle with logic though with your final example.

All buttercups are yellow, doesn't mean all yellow things are buttercups..

(oh, and there's plenty of non-religious terrorism..)

And you think that's caused by misandry?

I think it's more likely to be caused by societal misogyny - men can't be 'weak', a large number of men expect women to solve their problems for them (eg. make them go to the doctors, don't forget to take their medication, provide healthy meals)

Lots of men have no trouble displaying all sorts of feelings, it's only some feelings that are bottled up, and again, in my experience, the reasons they choose to do so are misogynistic. I don't think women can really help here - the men doing this don't value women's opinions, I think this needs to be men stepping up to help men.

How do we know there is a crisis of good men being unable to express their feelings?
What are we being asked to do to address this? If the intention of the thread is to garner support to address a problem, it's helpful to have some evidence that the problem is what it's purported to be, and some clarity about the expectations on us to address it. Because all I'm seeing here is women being urged to do 'something' because men aren't able to voice their feelings. Which is all a bit vague and unsubstantiated.

6 pages of woolly feelings with no evidence.

Wrong. Women can absolutely help. Those of us that want to.

How?

How many of the men who take their life are good men and how many are bad men avoiding the consequences of their actions?

What is the ratio of good men to bad men taking lives or are we assuming all who do this are good men?

While all suicide should be prevented and it is tragic that this is happening, within these figures are many bad men who knew the net was closing in on them and they would go to jail etc for their actions.

Also why is it talked about that it is a crisis men are committing suicide and not a crisis when women attempt as the numbers of women attempting are far higher than men succeeding but that is not a crisis, right?

Woman can help to change misogynistic views men hold

yet to see this happen

people only change if they want to and they work at it

Well, wanting to is the start. I'm not getting the vibe that many want to. In my experience, people either know how to give support... or they don't.

Lots of mass generalisations here and much of it woefully inaccurate.

But in answer to your last point: women talk openly about issues, men don't. Which is what this thread is about.

How would you do it? As you want to.

PPs point was that the number of suicide attempts by women exceeds that of men. Which doesn't sit well with the theory that women's ability to talk through their feelings affords them a protection that men don't have.

Women do not always talk about their issues. How many women have told someone they were raped? Very few. How many live with DV but do not share? many. Most women live without sharing that as they know that 1. they will be blamed for it. 2. not believed and 3. falsely accused.

Mass generalisations in saying that there will be both good and bad men who commit suicide. It is the law of probabilities that in that group there will be some good and bad. It isn't all good men dying or just all bad men dying. It is a mixture. Yet we only acknowledge that it is good men doing this. We do not want to include the bad men who are doing this as that wouldn't have the desired effect would it?

Why not include all of it for a whole picture of what is going on?

Absolutely! So many are silently suffering with things like rape, DV, coercion etc. But because women are seem to be 'talkative' or 'chatty' doesn't mean they are sharing what is really happening in their lives. And the fact that women attempting is not seen as a crisis is also a concern. Men doing it is a crisis but more women attempting is not. Says it all really.

It all should be a crisis but when it comes to women it isn't seen as an issue.

Do they? I didn’t talk openly about my PND for fear of being judged/people thinking I’m a bad mother. I don’t talk openly about the challenges of dealing with my disabled child, for fear of being judged/people thinking I’m a bad mother. I could go on.

Well your experience doesn't stand scrutiny unfortunately. As often people don't know how to support, but could be guided and could learn. Certainly women do seem to be doing a pretty good job of supporting the men in their own lives, given men in relationships are typically mentally and physically healthier. However, the premis of the thread is that we should be doing more for men in general. So, what should we be doing?

No we cannot change men’s misogynistic views. Only men can do that.

The leading causes of male suicide include untreated or poorly treated clinical mental illness, drug and alcohol dependency and financial difficulties. Many men who lose their lives to suicide leave behind loving partners and mothers who offer every opportunity to talk, who attempt repeatedly to access help for them from (inadequate and over stretched) services, who urge them to address their substance misuse, who share the financial burden and offer reassurance. Of course some men who take their lives are lonely and isolated and the inability to talk may have exacerbated their problems. But there's something I find deeply uncomfortable about framing a platform to express themselves that women who 'wanted to' could do 'something' about as a key protective factor. Not least because people bereaved by suicide often suffer significant misplaced guilt as it is. To be sending the message that mothers, partners and sisters should be doing 'something' more to prevent it sits very badly with me.

I'm personally less concerned with male suicide directly (I think it's tragic, but fundamentally agree with @5128gap ) but more with how society will be affected/eroded by having masses of young and middle-aged men who are semi-permanently alienated from purpose and connection (work and family life).

I don't think the issue is that they don't talk enough - as many people have commented either positively or negatively, they do talk about their problems as a whole but we're either not listening or don't like what they're saying.

I don't think a lot of modern culture is great for women (see previous comments about consoling friends devastated by hookup culture, e.g.) - but I think en masse it's dangerous to have a huge bloc of disenfranchised and alienated men.

Telling them to open up to the mums more, so we can give them a hug and remind them to not be misogynistic, is just...

Yes and all the while it is men who are mocking women about them being alone.

We have a male loneliness epidemic yet we have a situation where men are mocking women and trying to humiliate them for living alone. Women who live alone are portrayed as odd, crazy, mental etc. Not just woman enjoying peace etc. The 'crazy cat lady' line and the 'dying alone' is used so frequently to try and humiliate and shame women who live alone because how dare they chose being alone over men.

The issue is that loneliness and being alone are viewed very differently when it comes to men and women.

Women's loneliness and/or being alone is seen as a choice and an affront to men. Whereas men's loneliness is seen as women's fault. That women are withholding both attention and support.

If men who are lonely are in a precarious position that they can seek to harm themselves over it then surely those same men mocking women for that very same thing such as dying alone etc - shouldn't that be an issue that they are in effect supporting female suicide or wanting it to happen?

Isn't that an horrible realisation that men wouldn't mock men being alone or lonely because they might just kill themselves and that would be awful and be a crisis but men would openly mock women because well, they might just....kill themselves or attempt and that is not a crisis as it is woman.

How awful to realise men will openly mock women knowing the same thing could kill a man but they do not care about doing that to women and how their actions could also lead to the same outcome.

Well they have embraced the equality of going halves on dates.

Not all, some want to pay. Some want to pay as they feel it is what men do. However we also have some want to pay because it will give them ammo to press for that to be paid back in kind and that won't be shared with her until after. She's been treated to a meal so he needs treating in return.

This is so common that meals out are a transaction to men.

Here’s that attitude again that women will just chat to anyone about their issues. When people say things like that it makes it seem like women’s issues are easier to talk about and trivialises them.

I certainly didn’t talk to anyone when I felt suicidal.

again, more women than men attempt suicide - women aren’t talking about their issues either but everyone assumes wrongly that we are. Or they don’t care that we’re not because men have it bad too.