To think there’s a real crisis in men being able to express how they truly feel about life and society?

[TheGentleSwan]

It feels like, in the West, men are struggling to be honest about their emotions, their frustrations, and how they view the world. Whether it’s societal pressure, fear of judgement, or just a lack of spaces to talk openly, it seems like many men keep things bottled up. AIBU to think this is a real issue?

I'm not a statistician either, but given the UK is around 80% white, with males being 49% of the population, I'd expect to see a cabinet where 40% of the members were white men.

Yes, of course the white men in the top positions are typically also wealthy, and wealth contributes to advantage. However, unlike race and sex which are inate and can't be changed or influenced, wealth is a societal construct that can be earned, taken or given, and is not only a contributor to privilege but a result of it. So when looking at wealth inequality we need to go deeper and ask why the white men in the top positions are also the wealthiest.

Those are some very interesting points. I certainly noticed how differently I was often viewed as a single father compared to my single mother friends.

I think I mentioned incels first. I've seen incel rhetoric along the lines of "women don't know how good they've got it so I don't give a shit if they feel hard done by." It struck me how similar that was to some of the opinions expressed in this thread about men.

"In my experience of what can only be a tiny proportion of all men I've not seen this issue therefore it never happens and anyone who says it does is lying, mistaken or misinformed."

Says the man comparing women saying "if men feel a type of way they can put support in place for themselves rather than relying on women" to incels who routinely discuss us as body parts and trade hints and tips on the best ways to rape, hurt and kill us.

Except that women don't commit the bulk of violent offences! Women calling out male violence are not incels.

OP claims that male loneliness is the problem that no one wants to confront. I believe quite strongly that male violence is the problem that no one wants to confront.

This doesn't mean, as some posters claim, that all men are bad. They aren't.
But enough are that life for women across the world is difficult. And as a pp said, loneliness is not unique to men.

The ONLY reason OP is raising this question is because some of those lonely men are raping and killing. The lonely women are doing nothing criminal

There’s no such thing as misandry. Women have never oppressed men on the basis of their sex - they’ve never held the power to be able to do so

I think I believe this now. There is no such thing as misandry.

As Atwood said- paraphrased- women laugh at men. Men kill women.

If that's all incels we're saying, well, it's not 'kind' but it's at least a position of neutrality. Not giving a shit about something simply means it's not a cause you care about or want to actively support. Incels go so much further though, don't they? At best trying to obstruct women trying to gain rights, at worst advocating for our rape and murder. You have seen nothing on this thread that looks remotely like that, so the comparison to incels is false, and simply a means to make women look bad.

Because it goes back generations. If you go back a few decades, all our elite and aristocratic were of course white: their children are then white. And so on. Wealth often travels in families and down generations. Hence.

If you think it's a piece of pie to earn your own wealth and status from scratch as opposed to inheriting and being born into the right family you're very much mistaken. It isn't just the wealth itself, it's all that goes with it: associates and connections being the main one.

People are clearly blind too: there are many black and brown successful business owners and elites . Do we ask why all the sheikh's aren't white ? Of course not, you wouldn't expect them to be. We're just ridiculously self defeating In the UK : and in the end it'll destroy us. A lot of people have guzzled the kool aid.

On the note of women, I've already answered that. Maybe less women choose business and politics as a career ? Women generally have children: this will put a gap in their CV. We can all sing the song of "oh but men can stay at home and look after the new born baby whilst mum goes off to be the next CEO" but that isn't what I'd practical in most families. Sometimes, traditional roles are needed. Else children are harmed. I wouldn't want to have a mother or be one , that puts my career ahead of the fundamental years of being a parent. Someone has to stay at home for a bit : and it is usually the mother. It's all madness this current time !

Really, I thought that was Greer? And to think, Atwood goes headlong into gender woo and throws women under the bus to mollycoddle men.

Bit like "white people can't experience racism " you keep drinking that kool aid. I expect it'll all go really well for society, this fashionable victimhood and division.

It's Atwood. Gender woo needs a whole new thread! But yes, relevant, because when some men felt unseen and marginalised, they decided the best way to achieve that was take over women's spaces.

I actually think women can be misandrists and the concept isn't enmeshed with systemic power - like say the patriarchy.

Would you care to say exactly what gender woo is and how Atwood does this?

I think the reasons they're keeping them bottled up might be significant.

To judge by what is said by so many on mens forums/twitter etc. I'd suggest that some things are kept bottled up because they know the opinions are deplorable.

On an individual level, outside of medical mental health issues my experience is that it's cowardice and laziness - not wanting to experience the repercussions of (for example) saying they're unhappy in their marriage and they want to leave. And I count it as cowardice, because my ex certainly felt that way, yet he chose to cheat and keep me as childcare/housekeeper/administrative assistant rather than just tell me and deal with the consequences (he left that to me, after torturing me with his behaviour for years until I finally realised he wasn't depressed, just a shit)

This.

Yes, Atwood has claimed that feminism should be inclusive of trans women. That women should affirm trans identities. That the defense of the word woman is mis-guided. And other bits of nonsense.

White men are privileged. I don’t think anyone can dispute that.

one of the problems though is that privilege does not mean that every single white male will be successful, or will even see any of that privilege at all. When they struggle, to be then told that they are part of that privileged group so should shut up, only adds to the feelings of failure. “I had all that advantage and still I’m a failure”

A lot of issues for men are not evenly distributed - they are much more a "sex of extremes" than women are.

A small proportion will be rapists, or become mega-wealthy startup founders, or have sex with 100 women, or go on a killing spree, etc etc. Some men will have 20+ children but, for example, more men than women will also never have children - life isn't quite zero-sum for men, but it's more competitive than it is for women. Women tend to cluster more tightly in the middle (i.e. be basically normal and not extreme).

I think one of the problems we have when we talk about men is we discuss extremes as if they were averages.

This is as true for the ardent feminist who says we need to constantly remind all boys to not be rapists, as for the Andrew Tate figure who says boys should aim to be one of the sex-with-100-women winners.

When most men need a template for how to be a normal married man in the suburbs with 2 kids and regular social football practice. (But we're allergic to normative advice these days...)

Being vaguely indifferent to male loneliness and not being ' kind' is not the same as being an incel. The very fact that this comparison was made by posters shows how indifferent society has become to male violence.

I need to be on social media for my job.
I have lost count of the number of rape and death threats I have got. Reporting does no good whatsoever. These men could be out starting clubs or playing golf. But what they are doing is threatening women. I wonder why that is. No doubt I am just sowing division, as a pp said

I can see on this thread that some women are revelling in the 'victim' mentality. It's really not helping in this society today. Our future and that of our children is doomed if we carry on like this.

It's 2025! Women are no longer discriminated against. It's literally illegal! We haven't ever had it so good (and rightly so!) yet here we are, still playing victims. I can't help but feel some women on here read black Mumsnet or Muslim Mumsnetters for example see the "go away you don't get an opinion on our oppression" and think "I want me some of that !". It's getting old and tired.

Will pockets of racists, misogynists, homophobes always exist ? Always. Do we allow it legally? in employment? No. Are most people tolerant and accepting in general ? I believe so. But just as we solve the worst of the discrimination, in comes the "new speak" : "micro aggressions" and such like. All this "them and us" division, is merely swapping the oppressed and the oppressor - that's not equality. Just the oh so "educated" are so tangled up in being "educated" they can't see it.

Only men can solve this. Men have to model to young boys what they want them to see. If boys do not see it then it will be normalised that it is hidden. If boys see it then it will be normalised as a visible.

It has to come from men though.

I disagree with all of this.