Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I’m a world where you can be anything, be kind. But this is beyond one person on here. Abuse and insults are their only mantra. Sad.

Could you possibly be a little clearer on what the lie is W0tnow?

I probably shouldn't try to paraphrase what HostessTrolley has said but I was agreeing with what I believed her to have said.

It's absolutely correct that a number of posters have been saying that by no means all UK medical school graduates are sufficiently suited to further training to be given a post. So that's not a lie. Is the lie the fact that you don't believe that there are graduates of UK medical schools who just aren't good enough? Several people have said that these graduates would be better off leaving the medical profession sooner rather than later. It's not clear what you mean but you say that some lie is being promulgated over and over and over so perhaps you could clarify, because it seems very clear to you what the so-called lie is.

W0tnow the credentials of the consultant who led the discussion about PBL are impeccable. And it was another thread, so derailing is irrelevant. I merely suggested that Hollibob went back to that thread. The opposite of a derail.

@Hollibobcat

The coyness starts with the poorer medical schools not wanting to be identified, however, the evidence is consistent. For reasons that are not at all clear, some mummies like to pretend that it does not exist, but it doesn't take very long to find examples.

"There is significant variation in preparedness for practice, progression through Annual Reviews of Competency Progression in UK training programmes and fitness to practice sanctions according to the medical school of primary qualification. There are also significant differences in the performance of graduates from different medical schools on high-stakes postgraduate examinations such as the Fellowship of the Royal College of Anaesthetists (FRCA), Membership of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (MRCOG), Membership of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, Membership of the Royal College of General Practitioners (MRCGP) and Membership of the Royal College of Physician (MRCP)." Ellis 2022,

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34987044/ Ellis is unusual in identifying individual medical schools - but there were only 31 medical schools then and there are 46 now. However, applying medical school characteristics that are associated with negative outcomes, it should be possible to estimate where the newer medical schools fit in the scheme of things.

"Medical schools differ in large numbers of ways that are causally interconnected. Differences between schools in postgraduate examination performance, training problems and GMC sanctions have important implications for the quality of patient care and patient safety." McManus 2020,

Exploring UK medical school differences: the MedDifs study of selection, teaching, student and F1 perceptions, postgraduate outcomes and fitness to practise | BMC Medicine | Full Text McManus is a useful read, covering differing standards and outcomes across a number of metrics.

Totally agree with attempts to derail the thread. The question is why the group felt they needed to derail this thread?

Do you think it is ok to call strong women supporting their bright, hardworking children as "mummies"?

@PurpleFairyLights fingers in the pie maybe?

@W0tnow I think that is a definite.

And I am v proud of being a ‘mummie’. I’m also proud of all the v many students who are now more likely to get employment. Love Wes saying more working class doctors - I’ve sent him a message to tell him I’ve been doing my best to achieve this for years.

Why do we have two posters, who attempt to give the aura of being knowledgeable about the NHS posting with such ignorance?

This is a post about prioritising UKMGs but they continue to turn the thread into an attack on our young doctors and UK medical education.

BAPIO funding about to be substantially cut. Maybe even halted.

It simply isn't possible to have a valid discussion about which doctors should progress through the training stages without recognising that not all doctors have the ability to progress and that arguably we currently have too many undergraduates at medical school due to over expansion with an accompanying drop in standards at the bottom end.

😂 god loves a trier.

12,000 graduates for 13,000 jobs. Maths is simple.

We await advice to what is that ‘bottom end’.

I do wonder why you posted in AIBU OP since you seem to want to restrict the narrative exclusively to those who share your narrow view with no reference whatsoever to the broader issues.

Wes Streeting isn't going to base his plan on narrow protectionist views. He's already said no additional consultant posts, and no priority for consultant posts for UK MGs. I'm sure that we'll see a plan which produces a large flank of junior doctors who won't progress far up the ladder but who are UK MGs.

But the parents on these threads have been saying they just want their DC to have jobs in the NHS, any jobs, so presumably that will be sufficient for them.

It's self explanatory.

Do you mean foreign?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 ‘self explanatory’. Oh that’s ok then.

Absolutely.

Comedy gold that this mess is now being blamed on over expansion of UK medical school places and not the 20,803 IMGs that applied for specialist training in the UK in 2025.

12,000 graduates for 13,000 jobs. Simples. Even meerkats can work it out.

Wondering what these two collaborators propose as an alternative workforce to replace the below standard UKMGs.....😂

Also how can these two fail to understand that specialty training application process is robust and they don't just take anyone so below par applicants won't get a training number.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/350-extra-medical-school-places-allocated-in-nhs-training-boost

350 extra medical school places as opposed to...😂

Yes, with limited prospects. But you know, that will suit a lot of people.