Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I don't know why some on this thread seem so offended at the suggestion that some people that start medical school won't reach the level needed to get into specialty training. The young people who apply for med school at 17 are very different to the people they become at 26-ish, after year 13, 5/6 years of med school and 2 years of foundation. They sometimes find themselves unsuited to the actual job as opposed to their 17 year old perception of it, or have changes in their personal life that they feel are incompatible with a medical career, or don't develop the people skills, or flounder under the volume of academics, or get a better offer, or realise that they're fulfilling family dreams rather than their own, or come to the conclusion that being a doctor in the NHS is pretty thankless and all-consuming and not the life they want. Surely finding this out and moving on to something that is fulfilling and better utilises their considerable talent and ability is better? I don't think it's disrespectful to say that some, who are strongly able and motivated at 17, are better off elsewhere.

Of course UK grads should be prioritised for NHS posts over IMGs, it would be relatively straightforward to give extra 'points' to UKMGs at the point of applying for specialty posts or to put a requirement of NHS experience into the IMG application process. What would be wrong would be giving UKMGs training posts just for the sake of giving them a job, I want better in my colleagues and in the doctors treating my family than that, and I want the UKMGs who are not going to have a successful medical career to find something that's fulfilling and right for them at an earlier stage.

My d was also commenting on the number of people at her uni who chose their intercalation degree subject expressly because it provides a route out of clinical medicine - stuff like education and medico legal subjects.

No.

and the lie was you saying that posters were saying every ukmg should get a post and that all img were shit.

@HostessTrolley No one is talking in absolutes here. Well, apart from Sevillian. Of course some students won’t progress as far as others. No one has said different. Not that that is the topic here but whatever. This is about ukmg being given priority over imgs for roles that they are qualified for and ready to progress to.

Have you read all the posts on the two threads? These threads are about priority for UKMGs so back to the situation before 1st January 2021 when RLMT waa changed?

We are offended because we did not advocate for all medical students to become doctors regardless of ability. Our DC graduated around 2-4 years ago so new medical school exam format etc is irrelevant as they did not take the exam.

We also never said all UKMGs to be given a training number regardless of ability. There were caveats put forward for specialty training posts that applicants were ready to progress that you have either not read or ignored.

It would be interesting if you could highlight the posts where we have said all medical school students should be rubber stamped through to become doctors and the the posts that say all UKMGs should be given a training number regardless of ability. Hint you will not find any posts. Our argument for UKMG priority had the caveat that they were ready to progress to specialty training.

Unfortunately, there are a group on here that are still saying that we were asking for all UKMGs to get a training number. It is untrue and they have been challenged to cite posts saying that but never managed it.

There have been many attempts to derail the threads for whatever reason. If you read both threads you will see them attempting to take the thread off topic many times. The most persistent arguments of UK medical education and specialty training application process not being robust enough.

Your daughter may be starting F1 in August but in November 2026 she will be applying for specialty training and will be impacted by the backlog of thousands of UK doctors that did not get into specialty training since RLMT changes in 2021.

It is naive to think all of these doctors did not get into specialty training because they are below par and ignore the high competition ratios as the cause. Incoming F1s will need to be aware from day one that this will impact them down the line in November 2026 as competition ratios will still be high and they will be competing with UKMGs that been doctors far longer.

@HostessTrolley
Because of the progress made your DD is now likely to have job in 2 years. Assume they are not a placeholder F1 this year - your attitude would be v different if they were !

‘Reach the standard for speciality training’ ? You think presenting at conferences and making posters make a better doctor ? Because they get you the points, not your bedside manner or ability to diagnose and treat patients.

Again, this. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see the problem. And these figures are better than this years. It is expected to show a 1:5 chance of getting a speciality post. Used to 1:1.2 5 years ago. Only thing that’s changed ? Anyone from anywhere in the world can apply.

@mumsneedwine did you see the post where the extra 350 UK medical school graduates were blamed rather than the 20,000 IMGs that applied for specialty training? Unbelievable 🤣

@PurpleFairyLights 😂 it's more like 35,000 this year. Those pesky 350 UKGs. 13,000 jobs for 12,000 graduates - it’s almost like the number of places into UK medical schools was planned 🤔

As I thought. You completely misread my perfectly straightforward post, agreeing with the last para of the post immediately above.

Quite an achievement. But noted that you went straight to shouting ‘lie’.

Massively over the top. Read properly another time.

Also, if you don’t mean foreign, then what do you mean? You very clearly are implying foreign; there’s no other explanation of ‘finger in the pie’. Not covering yourself with glory there either W0tnow.

I can’t see any such post.

Perhaps you should be clearer in your communication. Anyway there have been many accusations of “you think every ukmg should have guaranteed training”. From you and others.

Oh, and there is a fundamental flaw in your continued accusations of racism. Think hard.

@W0tnow their only form of argument is to insult. Not sure why they are so invested in the UKG situation ? 💵

W0tnow I couldn't have been clearer 😂

I asked if when you said this poster (and another) must have a 'finger in the pie' you meant that you thought we were foreign. I can't see that that's an accusation of racism at all, on any interpretation. You haven't offered an alternative explanation so I'll assume that you do mean that you think posters who aren't toeing the OP's line are foreign and I'll further assume that that's because you can only imagine posters being able to see the world from a vested interest perspective. I find the vested interest only perspective extraordinary but on these threads it seems unfortunately common. As I've said before - the worst of MN ('Strong women supporting their DC' 'If your DC was a placement holder for F1 you'd think differently' etc).

mumsneedwine since you keep appearing like a self appointed Greek chorus perhaps you could explain what you mean by your post at 21.17 last night:

12,000 graduates for 13,000 jobs. Simples. Even meerkats can work it out

I think this phrase which you've repeated ad nauseum across the various threads has led to confusion. On the face of it your averagely intelligent meerkat would say that it implies that all UK medical school graduates will be able to secure a training post. Others (but I think not you?) have said oh no some will fall by the wayside. Your own position seems to be that all UK medical school graduates are good enough for further training in the NHS beyond F2,

Can I just say that not all meerkats are equally bright. Some are far brighter than others. Perhaps you mean that only the very brightest and best meerkats can work out what you mean? Because, as I say, the implication to an averagely intelligent one is that you think that all UK medical school graduates are equal, and equally entitled to have a training post after F2.

As we're all about to see, the bottleneck is simply going to shift. But the purpose of all these multiple threads and pleas to MPs was for UK medical school graduates to be able to get any job in the NHS, and that is what Wes Streeting has promised. But the devil is definitely going to be in the detail. Anyone who is making a correlation between getting a training post and necessarily progressing very far is likely to be sorely disappointed. You know, those much scorned PhDs and strongly academic backgrounds may unfortunately still count.

I didn’t read all that. Lost interest.

@W0tnow 😂 why are they so invested ? Not a doctor. Not a ‘mummie’ of a doctor. V strange to care quite so much 💵

This is what integrity is.

😮 No words.

Oooh I’m a Greek chorus now 🎶. I’ll keep on singing then.

UK med school places are capped. This is done to ensure there are enough F1 jobs and to ensure we have enough doctors to fill training and further on consultant posts. Worked well for many years, with people doing SHO/F3 type jobs until could get into training (v often by choice as locum pay was v good). But then we let the world in and it became a fiasco. A v expensive one. 1,000 UK graduates did not get an F1 rotation at the start, and many jobs have had to be created which will not provide the training they need - because so many IMGs have taken the F1 jobs.

Thankfully sense has prevailed. The people making money out of IMGs are a bit upset though.

Am assuming poster not in UK if doesn’t get relevance to meerkats. I love Alexander but bright he is not.

Completely agree. Like a poor quality comedy deliberately misunderstand what we are saying to spread disinformation. Example is recent poster that has completely fallen for the false narrative.

@PurpleFairyLights if anyone has a child who is a doctor and they think the current situation is right, then they don’t talk to their child. Or they have no friends. An algorithm works out who gets F1 places, no merit involved at all. Maybe speciality training should use an algorithm too ??!

I agree but there seems to be an overinflated opinion in thinking that going to a certain medical school will insulate DC from the problems ahead.

Newsflash absolutely no-one cares what medical school doctors go to except a few posters on here going on about top medical schools. Also DC will get no extra points on specialty training application for going to certain medical schools.

@PurpleFairyLights the arrogance to think that is amazing. I really hope they don’t turn up on the wards with that attitude because otherwise they’ll be doing rectal exams forever. Can you imagine them thinking they are better than their F2 or SHO just because they went to a certain Uni 😂.

The old way of points for position in class did seem a bit odd top of class of somewhere okay would get more points than towards to tail end at somewhere high flying. Plus points for intercalation - many choose a bsc where everyone gets a first to get those points rather than a hard science which can be trickier.
Do we count as international graduates those who applied from UK to go to Prague etc as got rejected by the UK medical schools.
I am one of those mummies who should be letting them get on with it but I believe that as family we support one another and I listen to the grumbles I also work in the NHS so hear other resident doctor grumbles and worries.
Luckily my DC and their friends were pre 2021 and the big arrival of the IMGs (just) - it was hard, competitive but not impossible and there was still the need to do posters conferences etc to get the points.
They do tell me now that they have greatly increased numbers of students and FY1/2 to teach and sign forms for on a daily basis.