To think asking people if they have grandchildren is like asking if they are pregnant - just don't!

[Liesmorelies]

I was talking to a colleague last week and she suddenly asked if I had grandchildren. I think she already knew I had children but not their ages - I don't know her well and we weren't discussing our children at the time.

It really took me aback and, I admit, offended me a bit. I'm 49 and have been told a few times I look younger. Not because I'm so attractive (I'm not!) but my skin is pretty good and no grey hair and, while I'm quite insecure about my looks, looking older than I am is not among them. Or wasn't. It is now.

I know you can have gc at 49 but it's quite unusual and no one where I work who is the same age as me has gc- all have dc around the same age as mine (late teens).

If someone was clearly in their 40s/50s but I wasn't sure of their age I just wouldn't ask it unless I knew for a fact they had adult dc, just like I wouldn't ask if someone was pregnant just because their figure suggested they might be!

It also makes me worry that she was being a bit snide, which is also an upsetting thought.

Education is highly important to my family too. We just see education as a lifelong thing and not incompatible with starting a family in our twenties.

I mean, by 23 I had two first class degrees under my belt so I figured I had a sort of half decent base level of education before I started my family.. but just to be on the safe side I did a post grad qualification alongside my professional job before starting a family at 27. My mum did one degree pre children, did some bonus a levels while she was a stay at home mum and then a second degree and a masters once she was in her thirties...

My friends and contacts also come from my professional and university life and I would say many of them (particularly those of us with wealthier parents) were having babies by our late twenties. Maybe I bonded more with those a similar age to me, but there were about 5 of us at my work (all well paid highly qualified professionals) who became very close as we had children at similar ages so were often on maternity leave together.

How old are you? No one on here is saying that as soon as you hit 40+ everyone is going to assume you’re a grandmother.

The fact is 35 is considered a geriatric pregnancy. So anyone older than 35 is considered an older mother. Premenopausal age range starts at 30-40 and menopause can start between 45-55, and can also start earlier or later. Yes it’s getting more common to have kids later on in life but many people have kids in their 20s and many people become grandparents in their late 40/50s. I don’t see why that is so hard for you to understand, just because you haven’t experienced this doesn’t mean other people haven’t.

The average age of first-time mothers in England and Wales was 28.8 years in 2017, while the average age of all fathers was to 33.4 years (Birth characteristics in England and Wales: 2017).

When you tend to think of grandparents, you’d be forgiven for picturing someone in their sixties (or even older). In fact, the Office For National Statistics (ONS) suggests the average age for becoming a grandparent in the UK is rising.
Between 2017 and 2018, the average age people became grandparents was 63. Yet in 2009 to 2010, it was 60 years old.

And 74% posters voting YABU does not necessarily mean that’s the norm. It can also mean that there are a lot of posters here who had kids young or who became grandparents young.

Just because you wait and don’t have kids until you’re 30s, doesn’t mean you’re educated, successful or in a professional job. Look at all the threads on here by women in their 30/40s whose husbands have left them and they have no prospects. It just means you’re broke and older.

Should also say many women in their 30/40s who leave their job to raise kids for a few years have trouble getting back into employment in their previous field.

But now you are going with what NHS says. Above 35 is geriatric pregnancy in NHS but according to some posters same NHS asks 64 year old ladies if they are pregnant. Maybe they need to update their forms.

I think we will continue to argue, and perhaps thete is no right or wrong answer. For some, a 49 year old grandmother is a norm, for some it’s too early. We all form our norms based on the world we live in.

I still feel op is not unreasonable because her colleague never asked about her kids and jumped to the grandkids question. If she did she would have known that children are 16,18. And then based on what is normal to her she would have decided if it was still worth asking if 16 and 18 are parents yet or not.

@Catinthereallysmallhat it really isn’t hard for me to understand. I’ve been saying that all along. I have repeatedly said that this is my experience and that it is different to the perspectives of those who say that I am the minority or that I am wrong. But I’ve never once said that the experience of younger mums was wrong or that your experience of being surrounded by people having babies in their 20s was wrong or that you were incorrect. I’ve just endlessly stated that it is different. And that I live in a different place to where you live and have experienced a difference in peer groups. And I have also encouraged different perspectives being accepted! Many people do have kids in their 20s and become grandparents in their 40s yes but many people become parents in their 30s and grandparents in their 60s or 70s. You are the one who keeps saying I am just wrong and that most people who have kids around me will be younger and I know that it won’t be. I know it will be balanced in age across 20s and late 30s.

Those comments are in response to people saying that it is the norm to be mistaken for a grandmother at 49 because in my circles it isn’t the norm at all. Again, not saying you experience something different or you are wrong, just saying that neither of what we have both experienced is pure fact. It is our different experiences. I’ve also said I have an uncle who became a grandparent at 32. I am well aware of these differences. It doesn’t mean that one is wrong or better. Everyone is different. and that’s a great thing! Who wants to only be surrounded by people who have had the same experience. Life would be very dull.

I am not going to keep going round in circles with you because I’m just saying the same thing since the beginning. There are many different experiences and perspectives on this. So good night and sleep tight and I hope you don’t get mistaken for a granny one day and get offended by it when the time comes! (I joke)

Yes of course I’m going off what my employer says (NHS) and yes the NHS ask women if they still menstruate or could they be pregnant past child bearing age. Why is that so hard for you to understand? I’m merely a solider and have no control over the questions that we must ask, I don’t make the rules but need to ask the questions. I get asked questions when I see my doctor/nurse that are absolutely not relevant to me, but I know that they need to ask them and document them. You got an issue then complain to the NHS but really they don’t care.

Op said she doesn’t know the colleague, but the colleague knows she has kids but doesn’t know their ages. It was merely small talk. I work with lots of people and have no idea about their lives apart from those who I work closely with. I think the people agreeing with op are probably the same age and therefore maybe sensitive as they think grandmother means old, which op admitted too. It really isn’t a big deal.

Yes, although I have to say I am quite a senior manager and have hired a number career returners (often older than me, with children younger than mine, but I know I was fortunate personally and professionally). It frustrates me to hear that women still have difficulty getting back into the work place because I never see a career gap (for family or indeed other reasons) as a negative on a CV, and I am always happy to accommodate flexible working requests and support childcare emergencies. It's very maddening to hear there are still employers out there who make it hard for women to return to their career .

I wasn’t surrounded by people having kids in their 20s. I said originally some family members (mother, aunt and grandmother) were grandmothers in their 40s. All middle class and privately educated with degrees, married and professional job by their late 20/30s.

No one is saying women don’t have kids in their 30/40s at all. They are saying that either they have done that are their parents or know people have done that. I think you need to speak to the posters agreeing with op who can’t seem to grasp that yes some women will have a different life to them. But you’ve jumped on the people that are disagreeing saying that no this is not my experience. If you want to give a different perspective then interact with all the comments not just those you disagree with.

You are clearly very understanding and appear to be a good manager compared to others. But it is very much an issue amongst my friends that are having children in their late 30s. It as of we are almost aged of our jobs, especially women with young children. You have two candidates, both capable, same experience and qualifications but one has young children and the other doesn’t, I can imagine most employers would pick the one without young kids.

I suspect this is not just about having left to have kids.

Many men also start to have problems with employment once they reach middle age, if they are laid off or need to change sectors, so they aren't moving directly from another position, IYSWIM.

For whatever reason at a certain age if you are coming in without it looking like a conventional career progression, some managers aren't interested. Maybe they just aren't very imaginative? I used to work with my boss, who was about 10 years younger than I, hiring people to work in lower level positions. She was the upper management person and I was the shop floor manager, roughly. The first time we did a hire she commented that she prefered the younger candidates because she felt they were quicker to learn and train and brought more creativity and up to date knowledge. I managed to convince her in a fairly short time that was completely untrue, but I don't think it's an uncommon attitude.

”And it's perfectly normal to go around asking people over the age of 40 (as far as you can tell) if they are grandparents.”
OP give over 😂 You are months away from being 50.
Are you going to be one of those grandmas, whose grandchildren will refer to her by the first name? 🙃

I have actually interacted with people I agree with quite a bit! I’ve interacted with OP a lot and quite a few who have agreed with me. That being said, I do struggle to understand your points at times as they don’t read very clearly so perhaps I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying. But education has never been a point I’ve made so thanks for clarifying your family history but it’s not relevant to me.

My family were very working class, and both sets of grandparents had my parents in their late 30s and my parents were also working class and has my sister and I in 30s. None of my family were university educated or had professional jobs / worked with the exception of me and my sister, not that it is relevant to the discussion.

@MiracleCures thats terrible. My NHS employer is very understanding and supportive of parent leave and maternity leave etc. in my profession we also support return to work very well as we need to do return to practice if we take extended leave to ensure we still are operating at the correct standards. Perhaps it can be different trust to trust? I’ve worked in a number of trusts across the UK and haven’t known it to be an issue but equally I haven’t really noticed it much until my current role as kids weren’t on the agenda so I was less aware. Although we as a profession have supported lots of women returning to work after 5-10 years break by allowing shadowing and providing education etc which then often turns into them applying for any vacancies. I am in a senior position now and so a lot of hiring and I wouldn’t consider not offering a job to someone on that basis. Because of EDI we would need to prove they weren’t right for the role compared to someone else as we are an equal rights and flexible working champion trust. I am glad to hear you’re supportive in your role too.

I would say asking a middle-aged woman if they have grandchildren is rude, unless she has already disclosed that she has children that are themselves old enough that you would be able to politely ask if they have children.

This is a fair point too, as my dad struggled with being made redundant once he got into his early 40s and was often replaced by junior staff. And he was very good at his role - he did a degree through work and got the highest marks in the country! But they made him redundant during it so he couldn’t finish his final year and they kept on his colleague who was younger and has failed the entire course and cost the company 3k in uni fees. He then struggled to get hired and often worked on shop floors rather than in the office which is where he has worked his way up to.

But I’m on about women who are still fairly young in their 30/40s, returning to their job sector not middle aged men who have been laid off and choosing a whole new career. Both two very different things, however I don’t disagree with you about the comment about Middle Aged men or hiring older people.

You said I had grew up surrounded by people in their 20s having children, that was your assumption of me and that was not the case, hence my reply.

If you read earlier threads you would have seen the classist comments made by those old mothers about the only women that have children young are from council estates and are not educated, so merely stating from my personal experience this is not the case.So indeed relevant.

My points are very clear so it’s up to you to understand them. You may have interacted with other posters that have indeed agreed with you but again you’re only discussing your agreed view point… not a different perspective. You said you think other people should share different perspectives but you’re not accepting that other people do have a different perspective. Clearly you don’t understand that or don’t what to. If you’re not willing to understand that others have different view point from you then it’s pretty counterproductive to quote people on threads 👀

So asking anyone if they have kids is rude then?

@Catinthereallysmallhat again you make no sense. You said I should interact with people who agree with me two posts ago instead of those who disagree. I said I did. Then you said I should interact with those who disagree… I had already said I did interact with both. You being one of the ones I disagree with. If you read your comments back you contradict yourself repeatedly.

I skimmed the class comments but didn’t engage with them at the start which I alluded to ages ago and which is where you started replying to me repeatedly and arguing for young mums when I was never criticising young mums and haven’t mentioned class at all, so it isn’t relevant to any direct interaction with me. You brought it up when you said you weren’t surrounded by people having kids in their twenties as if to prove that you aren’t working class or uneducated - I never mentioned either of those things or assumed either of those things about you. And there was no point that I said I did. I assumed that you were a young mum because you were so aggressively annoyed and seemingly offended at the ageist comments from the beginning which I was not involved with or ever referring to.

Every point I have made you keep throwing out inaccurate or out dated statistics and even went as far as linking a previous thread where people state what they consider to be ‘too old to be a mum’ or something as part of your evidence that more mums are young - all opinion based. And given your responses to people on this thread I can highly suspect you didn’t read that previous thread with any accuracy at all and so quoting it is really not valid. But it is an opinion thread at the end of the day. And obviously only those who are interested in the topic or feel strongly about it will comment. So it’s not representative of the whole population. Same as your points - your opinion. And my points - my opinion. You mention research but no evidence base and no comparative studies. You also don’t seem to look for any research to support any opposing view points - that is biased. I could easily find evidence base to support my view and perspective, but that’s useless if you aren’t willing to be considering the opposing view also. Also, just to add, geriatric pregnancy is longer recognised in the NHS where you claim you work, which you should know because it’s a pretty hot topic in the NHS along with pronouns and equality language.

You have been arguing with me that I am an old mum and that I should expect that I could be viewed as a grandmother by most at the school gates as I will be outnumbered by young mums and that’s just fact and that OP is wrong and over sensitive and that everything I have said is wrong. This is also why I rationally assumed that you were a younger first time mum as you view my age as older maternally according to your responses. But then you turn around and start referencing all your friends in their late thirties who are new mums and can’t get back into work? Make it make sense.

You are also largely interacting with those who disagree with you - so I think you are describing yourself in your most recent post. You are arguing with anyone who states anything of an opposing view point and only once have you taken on the perspective of some one with an opposing view point and it was half hearted and unrelated to the topic. I have validated your view and opposing views of others repeatedly but still offered my own experience - I’ve never said I was right I’ve only ever offered a different opinion. You have never done that with anyone. You just keep harping on about your own and being cantankerous. Nothing you have said has furthered the discussion at all, whereas other people who have a different view point have. I have also, if you actually read my posts, agreed with some things and disagreed with others who have a different opinion to me. I also agree with the OP but offered a different perspective.

Your read as antagonistic and contrary and accusatory which makes it seem quite like you are the person who just enjoys arguing for the sake of it. So I hope I’ve given you a little kick tonight and it has brightened up your Monday morning. It also isn’t my responsibility to understand your posts if the sentences don’t make sense, unfortunately. You can’t write a letter to a patient and then tell them it’s their responsibility to figure it out if the sentences aren’t in order or intelligible, and the same applies here.

Also your most recent response to OonaStubs; yes it can be very rude. If you know anyone who has had miscarriages or struggles with infertility you should know that. It’s being considerate. I hope that’s not something you have ever had to experience but it is kind to be considerate of others who have who might cry at the mention of the question and be embarrassed. I don’t find it rude to ask but I know people who have been broken by being repeatedly asked it and so it’s a question I avoid. People tend to mention their kids if they have them and that’s a good time to start talking about them. Again, working in the NHS I thought you might have had to develop some compassion in use of language?? Particularly in the workplace where OPs original question was asked.

You can’t argue with irrational, and so I won’t any longer. And while you having a different perspective to me isn’t irrational, your way of expressing it does seem to be. It’s reactive and defensive and seems meant to provoke rather to be engaging. I’ll leave you to continue picking your way through the thread and disagreeing. But I have actually learned something from engaging in the forum and talking to some of those who disagree with me and will take away some things, because that’s why I’m here. To be supportive to people and to learn from other people. I can’t see that you will take away anything because you’re so fiercely right to start off with. Which is a shame. Because we can all learn and do better, you included.

I’m a year younger than you and a fair few of my former school mates are already grannies.

That would be extremely rare.

For God's sake - missing the point again! Of course I don't look 33 and nothing I ever said indicates that I think I do. In fact, I specifically said a number of times that I don't think that at all. The point is it's a nasty, dismissive, mocking comment that ignores the points I did make and frames me as a delusional idiot who stupidly believes she looks 15 years younger than she is.

In fact, I thought I maybe looked mid-40s rather than 50ish and I also thought that it was very unusual to be a grandparent at 49/50, which, following her comment, left me feeling I must look considerably older than I am instead of perhaps slightly younger. People have pointed out that it's difficult to determine someone's precise age and she probably just sees me as 'older' than her, and that lots of people are, in fact grandparents at 49. I see both of these points and, while they don't completely change my view that her comment was ill-advised, I do see that it may not have quite the implications I thought it did.

I think the comments about me thinking I look 30 odd are dismissive and ageist.

No. The judgmental 'unambitious' shite is what you're wrong about. And that is what I was saying. But you already knew that.