DH reported at work

[CircleBaker]

I am stuck between ‘the world has gone mad’ and ‘why did you say that’ so I’d appreciate some MN wisdom!

DH has been reported to HR by a colleague due to a comment he made when she arrived at her desk on a recent morning. He said she looked particularly happy so he joked that she must have ‘got some’ the night before.

Now this colleague is someone DH has worked with for a while and always (in his view) got along with, so he was very surprised to hear of the report.

I can’t help but feel that as much as it wasn’t the smartest of comments, it was fairly inoffensive given they are friendly and it seems OTT to report?!

It’s a sexist comment because the OP has stated that the workplace is mostly men. The woman who complained would have grounds to bring a case for bullying and sex discrimination to a tribunal if HR doesn’t take it seriously.

And I stand by the fact that I have found you to be incredibly rude in many of your responses.

I am also incredibly disappointed that so many people saw fit to verbally attack the OP when she didn't deserve it. Direct the ire at her husband if you will.

On a different note, I am genuinely sorry to hear of your experiences and I can understand why you may have reacted strongly to what you have read on here. I wish you all the best x

And I stand by the fact that I have found you to be incredibly rude in many of your responses.

Likewise 🤷🏼‍♀️

I am also incredibly disappointed that so many people saw fit to verbally attack the OP when she didn't deserve it. Direct the ire at her husband if you will.

I think this issue was that she didn’t think he’d done anything wrong and there was a fair bit of victim blaming going on. That never goes down well when discussing sexual harassment.

On a different note, I am genuinely sorry to hear of your experiences and I can understand why you may have reacted strongly to what you have read on here. I wish you all the best x

Thank you. Appreciate it 👍🏻

8 posters have been deleted NOT just those two
3 more since my last tally.

dropping like flies

do you not appreciate also that some on here who have correctly called out dhs actions as being inappropriate then
go on to make abusive comments towards OP ( rtft)
including discriminatory remarks about her dh.

The irony and hypocrisy on this thread is off the scale.

For others who have questioned OPs exit from the thread, is it really any wonder !

I don’t think the OP has departed the thread TBH.

So
If a woman says it to a woman in the workplace…. What is it?

Id say bullying and harassment. Another other thoughts on here ?

Possibly lurking ? ( I actually don’t like that word, to me it comes across a bit deceitful but it’s used on mumsnet as the term for here but not commenting )

So
🤔. Let’s say reading along in the background perhaps

Yes, OP vanishes and a 'sock' (or 2) appears.

While I can see that the workplace being mostly men may well add to the comment being an unwelcome one, that made the coworker uncomfortable, I still don't see how that makes it a sexist or misogynistic comment.

I would be more inclined to think it was misogynistic if it wasnt the sort of comment that men make to other men, but it is. Perhaps, though, its a bit akin to someone who professes to "not see colour" and fails to properly consider other people's characteristics (e.g., a woman in a male-dominated office is probably more likely to feel uncomfortable with the comment than another man might be). An absence of sensitivity, I guess.

I do disagree that, on the facts presented, it constitutes bullying (not a strictly legal term in the UK, but generally requires repeated incidents) or sex discrimination (there is nothing that suggests discrimatory behaviour).

Sexual harrassment, though, is another matter. It was a comment of a sexual nature and was unwelcome, and the coworker is WELL within her rights to report it. If its part of a pattern of behavior, it would almost certainly constitute sexual harrassment. As a standalone, it might amount to sexual harrassment (I'm not entirely sure which way a court/tribunal would rule, its in the margins).

Blimey now you’re suggesting the only reason there are two posters on here that you don’t agree with is because they must all be OP, because only one opinion is relevant

Thats quite desperate.
Not everyone thinks the same. There are more people that don’t agree with dh being reported on here. Are they all OP in disguise.?
She’d need to have an awful lot of different email addresses.

She doesn’t come across as that desperate

Yeah, something like that.

It wasn't the best thing to say, but if it had bern said to me I don't think I would have reported it to HR, unless it was part of a pattern of inappropriate behaviour.
I worked in a well-known chain store at the weekend when I was younger. If in the staff room at the same time as one of the male store managers, there was a phase when he would ask if I was "going out on the pull" that evening.

I didn't here it said to others so think he did it to try and shock me or make me uncomfortable (and because he was more senior). I was around 19 or 20 and probably one of the more studious and less outgoing of the weekend staff (but did go out to the local pubs with friends most weekends). He didn't make the impact he wanted. I just saw it as pathetic and i gave a comment that showed that before partying on with what i was doing. I think I spoilt his fun, so he stopped asking.

At the time, and probably due to my age , I didn't think about reporting it. He was a bit sleazy anyway so probably should have. Didn't miss him when he moved to a different store.

Blimey now you’re suggesting the only reason there are two posters on here that you don’t agree with is because they must all be OP, because only one opinion is relevant

I'm not suggesting that at all.

Thats quite desperate.

Some people are desperate.

Not everyone thinks the same. There are more people that don’t agree with dh being reported on here. Are they all OP in disguise.?

No.

She’d need to have an awful lot of different email addresses.

No, she/he wouldn't. Posters can name change on here as many times as they wish.

You can't name change on the same thread anymore, so you do now need multiple email addresses to sock puppet.

Of course, that's doable (if a hassle) but I wish people would just use the report button if they suspect a sock, the last few pages have become tedious enough as is.

Not on the same thread they can’t.
One thread, one username

The comment was clearly sexual in nature. As such it was entirely reasonable for the person on the receiving end of that comment to be offended and to report your DH for behaving like a jerk. Making a joke at work - or any comment at all - about someone "getting some" is clearly inappropriate and a very stupid thing to do. The fact that it was a "joke" is irrelevant: the intent of the comment-maker is not important, it's the impact on others is what is important. So: anyone who could hear that comment could potentially complain about it - not only the woman who was the target of the comment. For example: any co-workers who heard it could report it, as could any customers or clients who heard it (it's not just other employees who can complain anymore).

Clearly you don't understand the rules on sexual harassment in the workplace. Fortunately the ACAS website (I can't link directly to it here, so it's ACAS dot ORG dot UK - then look for the page on Sexual Harassment) has some useful information on the law and what constitutes harassment. I won't quote the whole page on here but here are the examples provided by ACAS of what can constitute sexual harassment:

---

Examples include:

• making sexual remarks about someone's body, clothing or appearance
• asking questions about someone's sex life
• telling sexually offensive jokes
• making sexual comments or jokes about someone's sexual orientation or gender reassignment
• displaying or sharing pornographic or sexual images, or other sexual content
• touching someone against their will, for example hugging them
• sexual assault or rape

What some people might consider as joking, 'banter' or part of their workplace culture can still be sexual harassment.

Sexual harassment is usually directed at an individual, but it's not always the case. Sometimes there can be a culture of behaviour that's not specifically aimed at one person – such as sharing sexual images. Someone could still make a complaint of sexual harassment in this situation.

The question becomes whether the workplace provided training on sexual harassment and employee obligations. If they did not train him then he might be able to argue that they should have done. Though ignorance of the law is generally no excuse.

The very worst thing he could do at this point is retaliate in any way whatsoever - and even posting about the matter on Mumsnet could be viewed as retaliation so posting this topic could be a pretty daft thing to do if it would be easy to figure out who you are from previous posts or other information you've posted in the past. If you want help then get advice from an employment lawyer. ACAS can also provide some help - but in my experience they are pretty useless (as are their "mediators" - which isn't a surprise given anyone who is actually a decent lawyer would never choose to work for an organisation like that when they could be making far more money doing far more interesting work at a big law firm). If you have homeowners insurance then legal fees can be part of the insurance - to include employment law related claims. The best thing to do is to look at your policy provisions.

The point, though, is that you COULD have reported it, as could anyone who overheard him saying that stuff. You chose not to do so - likely because you didn't even know you could have done so. But that doesn't mean that others shouldn't report that kind of behaviour. Ultimately the best way to prevent sexual harassment in the work place is to stop all these "micro aggressions" - because oftentimes they indicate an offender who is testing the waters of what they can get away with saying. They will keep on pressing and then claim "it's just a joke!!" when called out on it. But it isn't just a joke - oftentimes they get a perverse pleasure from making feel uncomfortable and getting a reaction (or no reaction - because they know people are purposefully trying to ignore it). Sadly that kind of behaviour can get worse and worse - maybe not at work, but sadly out in public. As such it's very important to make it clear - either yourself or with help - if someone is behaving inappropriately. Because if you don't they will continue to harass you, and they will feel more empowered to harass other people. It's not your job to prevent other people from being harassed, but it is something to bear in mind when deciding whether or not to report someone: it isn't just you who is on the receiving end of that kind of nonsense.

To answer your question: there doesn't have to be a pattern for it to be viewed as sexual harassment. A one-off comment is also viewed as sexual harassment. You can find the information on this on the ACAS website. I've quoted part of their guidance in a previous post. In this case it was clearly a comment of a sexual nature, it was not welcome, and it upset the target of that comment. It was sexual harassment. The fact that he claims it was a "joke" is irrelevant.

The question is what a tribunal would then do about that harassment: a one off incident from a person who immediately is aghast about their idiotic comment and tries to make amends (apologises, offers to and does take remedial harassment training etc etc) will have a potentially different outcome than, for example, if the employer retaliated against the person who was complaining about the harassment, or tried to ignore the harassment. Or if there were many complaints about employees making similar comments and the employer never took action - which would indicate a culture of harassment.

I didn't ask a question.

You are wrong to say that a one-off comment is sexual harrassment, it can be, depending on the seriousness and other contextual factors (including whether it was intended as a joke).

There's a summary of caselaw and past ET decisions, here:

https://redmans.co.uk/insights/can-a-single-incident-or-remark-constitute-sexual-harassment-under-the-equality-act-2010/

I think this is close to the Dos Santos case (save that the OP's DH's coworker reported immediately).

Edit to clarify - its close to Dos Santos if this is a one off.

Your poor kids.

I find it really easy! In fact it’s second nature to me. I am sorry you struggle so much not to offend. Have you considered some training?

No one attacked OP.
The OP was rightfully called out for minimising the sexual harassment carried out by her own husband and blaming the woman for reporting his behaviour instead of him!

It’s honestly crazy that you’re painting this as a long thread attacking the OP. It’s a really bizarre perception on reality.

It's the sort of thing that would have flown in the Nineties workplace, but standards have risen since then, and your husband should have known that you do not, under any circumstances, mention sex at work, and certainly not a comment from a male to a female about her having sex. Has he been living under a rock for the last ten years? You absolutely do not say that stuff in the workplace anymore. I probably wouldn't have reported it, but I'd have been pretty taken aback. Your husband acted like a buffoon at best, a sexual harasser at worst if he says this kind of thing a lot.

I know someone who lost a job with a salary of 750k (hedge fund) because he got drunk at a company dinner and told a female intern all about his exploits at a sex club! She was sitting next to him. If I was her, I'd have been skeeved out but would probably have laughed about the old geezer. (He was 60-ish when this happened.) I know telling such stories is considered harassment these days, but that's a huge salary to lose just for getting drunk and telling inappropriate stories. Drunk Him probably thought they were funny. I don't think the intern reported him, I think it was her manager.

You really have to be SO careful these days. It's almost like a return to Edwardian times, when you stuck to discussing the weather and your health! Maybe we should all call each other Mr and Ms/Miss/Mrs Jones etc at work, like they did in Are You Being Served? 😂