To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

[Evedence]

I feel, as a FWR lurker, that I would have seen linked articles to bank up the fact that trans identifying men aren't safe in men's loos, and therefore that's the rational why women should budge up and accept trans identifying men in their spaces.

I'm pretty sure with a quick Google I could fund evident that trans identity men have made women's spaces unsafe (Kate delowski? The one who worked for a charity and made a masturbation video).

So AIBU to wonder what hard evidence there is?

I don't think there is, but it doesn't matter. Male on male violence has nothing to do with women.
Not our circus, not our monkeys.
Not our fucking problem
Not giving up my daughter's rights for men who pretend to women.

Probably as much evidence as there is to say women are unsafe when trans-women use female toilets. I feel sorry for everyone who has got themselves hyped up about this, I really do.

If trans women believe they are unsafe in men's restrooms, then certainly they understand why women believe they are unsafe with biological men in women's restrooms, right?

👏👏👏👏👏👏

Hey one of these threads again it's been a while!

I think it’s up to the trans person to decide which option is safer for them, depending on the situation, venue, context and risk.

IDGAF they are male so belong in Male/Gender neutral spaces. Male violence is not a reason for males being in our spaces.

I actually think the toilets example is overblown.

It’s not actually about safety for most people - it’s about privacy and dignity. I don’t like sharing toilets with men because they wee everywhere and wee with the door open etc which is gross.

I think it’s used the leading example in ‘trans women are women, what’s the problem’ because:
a) it’s very visible. We will all public toilets with some regularity
b) it’s a distraction for the more significant examples where single sex facilities or services are necessary for women’s dignity (like shared hospital wards or changing rooms).

It's the fox in chicken coop scenario isn't it?

And what about women's options?

Not in the UK it isn't no. Men are not allowed to enter women's toilets or any other facility that is allocated specifically to the female sex class. As women are not allowed to use the men's. This is the law.

I agree entirely, but where I'm coming from is they're stating something to achieve a goal. To be properly persuasive they've got to back that up with evidence, haven't they?

No. The Supreme Court ruling makes that clear.

If trans women feel unsafe in male toilets then it is perfectly reasonable for them to campaign for third spaces and I'm sure no one would have a problem with that. The answer is not for them to be in women's toilets.

There is plenty of evidence that men attack other men in male toilets so from that argument I guess transwomen are not particularly safe in men’s toilets no.

But I’ll tell you who is less safe - my 11 year old son who is pre-pubescent and less than 5 foot tall. He is a lot less safe than a transwomen who is probably a foot taller than him and has been through (male) puberty. But I still don’t let* him go in the women’s toilets because it would not be fair on his 11 year old female classmates who need privacy and dignity. Even if it is safer for him.

*By let I actually mean force as he would be mortified to be expected to go into the girls toilets.

You would think wouldn't you. Yet look how far they got without it. Look how much damage their lies have done. To women, children, society in general. Based on lies and incorrect assumptions, and driven by porn addled perverts.

If they don’t feel safe as a feminine presenting male using a male toilet/changing room/ gendered space, then maybe they shouldn’t transition? Instead of making others uncomfortable instead.

I genuinely think gender dysphoria is like anorexia. The horrible feelings one has about their bodies they way they are need to be examined, the cause for which found, and therapy’ed away. Not indulged.

Also men need to solve their own problems with violence. You think if someone was being beaten up in the women’s restroom, that no one would step in to help? Or at least contact the authorities to help? Why is there that difference between men and women?

There is physically unsafe (probably not but maybe in some contexts like a pubs full of drunken football lads) and then there is emotionally unsafe (feeling outed or unhappy). People who say “unsafe” might well mean the latter.

OK, so Katie Dolatowski is a trans woman who sexually assaulted at least two girls in women's public toilets.

If there is "as much evidence" that trans women are at risk in men's toilets, can you cute an example of at least two trans women being sexually assaulted by a man in men's toilet?

I was coming to say similar. My 9 year old is tiny for his age, he’s around 4ft tall but is expected to use the mens toilets. I suspect the toilets are less safe for him than a trans woman,

Of course, now we are getting women - women born women - being challenged in women's loos if someone thinks they look 'masculine'.

A lot of trans women, especially those who got puberty blockers, look no different from women born women. I have no issues with the trans women I know in female loos, whether it's me or my granddaughters. The problem is the rare predaotr taking advantage of the laws as they stood. But short of having the genital inspectors out, I'm not sure how these laws can be enforced, especially as many trans women have had surgery. I certainly don't want to have to show my id every time I go into the loo.

But it's not up to women to decide they are safer using toilets without any male people in them?

I'll take "things that didn't happen" for ten, please.

Well! Isn't that the very definition of selfish?