To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

[Evedence]

I feel, as a FWR lurker, that I would have seen linked articles to bank up the fact that trans identifying men aren't safe in men's loos, and therefore that's the rational why women should budge up and accept trans identifying men in their spaces.

I'm pretty sure with a quick Google I could fund evident that trans identity men have made women's spaces unsafe (Kate delowski? The one who worked for a charity and made a masturbation video).

So AIBU to wonder what hard evidence there is?

Yep.

Women use the gents at arenas and concerts when the women’s queue is too long. Seen that plenty of times.

There’s the law and then there’s reality.

What, all of us, collectively?

You think women in the UK shouldn't have any sex based rights because of the actions of two women in America?

Are you quite alright?

Well apparently men are collectively responsible for all violence, even those who have transitioned.

The reality is far messier than simplistic binaries.

Women using men's toilets are doing so at their own risk.

Trans identifying males using women's toilets are doing so at women's risk.

Not a toilet but the same situation…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117

11 transgender prisoners were sexually assaulted by male prisoners in a male prison in 2019. This is compared to 1 case of a transgender prisoner sexually assaulting a female prisoner in a women’s prisons that same year.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/transgender-teen-hospitalized-alleged-attack-high-school-bathroom-rcna156105

A transgender teen whose jaw was broken by a male student while using the male bathroom.

This discussion has been done to absolute death. I could also post a tonne of articles about men entering women’s bathrooms (as men, not trans women) and attacking women. They don’t and never have had to be trans to do that. For some reason though people go on and on about the Katie Dolatowski case.

Why do you think we have single sex spaces, out of interest?

Violence is everyone’s problem

Lots of men get assaulted in prison.

Prison is a very dangerous place.

That's one of the reasons why it's a good idea to refrain from committing crimes.

So, they are not safe in the men's or the women's toilets, by your examples. Third spaces are looking like the best choice all round.

But in the meantime ?

The 0.55% of the British population 4x at risk of violence than everyone else should have the freedom to mitigate the significant risks they face.

Evidence please?

And transgender people are managing their own risk exactly like those women, especially important given that they’re 4x more likely to be a victim of violence that people who are not transgender.

Evidence ?

Sure.

You keep saying this without providing any evidence.

And no, it's not equivalent because when women use men's spaces they are choosing to put themselves at risk, whereas when trans identifying males use women's spaces they are choosing to put other people at risk. It's profoundly selfish.

Evidence, please?

If third spaces had been campaigned for years ago, instead of expecting women to budge up, we wouldn't need to have this conversation.

We are in the UK.

In the uk transgender people are twice as likely to experience violence than non transgender people.

Let them mitigate the significant risks they face.

Interesting. A Swedish study in 2020 found that male-to-female trans people had rates of violent crime that were the same as cis-men (for want of a better term). Sorry, can't link, but here's a screenshot:

Or pee in a bottle in an alley. It's what they do when they want to protest about something . The vast majority still have the appropriate plumbing for it.

Chose the most famous trans woman I could think of.. Is CaitlynJenner put at more of a risk than Bruce Jenner In a man’s bathroom, of course she is for obvious reasons. The same reasons why women don’t want Caitlyn in there restrooms. There needs to be a third space.

I mean, "crime" is a bit vague, isn't it? This article doesn't actually link to the statistics so we can't dig down into what is actually underpinning this claim.

We know that trans people are less likely to be murdered than any other group.

We also know that hate crime statistics aren't worth the paper they are written on because they don't cover all protected characteristics equally.

(This is appalling because it means someone can get more jail time for murdering a trans woman than for murdering a woman. Theoretically, of course, given that trans people are almost never murdered.)

We also know that 100% of rapes and 98% of sexual assaults are committed by male people, with around 90% of victims being female.

Why do you think trans people should be allowed to "mitigate the risks they face" but women should not?

Because there is a fuck tonne more evidence to suggest that women are at risk from sharing toilets with male people than there is to suggest that trans women are at risk from sharing toilets with other male people.

But the question wasn’t, Are trans women at more of a risk than biological women, it was are trans women put at more of a risk than biological men in a man’s space.

It's not, no.

That's a self-selecting survey 😂

Trans women could entirely mitigate any risk by going out wearing gender neutral clothing and no makeup. It wouldn't make them any less women (you can't be any less of a woman than "not a woman" anyway) because lots of women wear jeans and T-shirts and no makeup.

Which rather begs the question, if they can mitigate the risk of being assaulted in public toilets by not dressing like Barbie, why don't they do that?