Page 5 | Are parents of 'Trans' children aware of the damage of full affirmation?

TheKeatingFive · 19/05/2025 15:57

Runnersandtoms · 19/05/2025 15:32

It is really really hard to walk the right line between causing harm by jumping to affirm, and causing a total relationship breakdown between child and parents by taking a hard line of non affirmation.

Yes it certainly is

Strangerthanfictions · 19/05/2025 15:58

Iloverosesandcarnations · 19/05/2025 11:49

Never said it was as simple as 'chuntering on...... etc' ...

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But you did say all kids go through a phase of questioning which is absolutely nonsense.

TheKeatingFive · 19/05/2025 15:59

Sabire9 · 19/05/2025 15:57

@Runnersandtoms

"The Cass review is clear that social transition is not a neutral act and can absolutely lead to irreversible physical harm, let alone extreme mental health harm"

You understand that not everyone accepts the recommendations of this report as being reliable?

From the Wikipedia entry on the Cass Report:

"In September 2024, a commentary was published in Journal of Adolescent Health arguing that other scholars had made "lengthy and nuanced rebuttals to the Cass report". The commentary says that Cass' conclusions generally focus on "limiting or minimizing medical gender-affirming care (GAC) for youth" and that she "minimizes the robust data and the potential negative impact of increasing barriers for an already disenfranchised group". The commentary states that "GAC for youth is well supported by evidence" and that concerns about the evidence base and the need for more research "do not warrant removal of access to this important care". The commentary further suggests that randomised controlled trials (RCT) would not be ethically feasible for young people experiencing gender dysphoria.[213]
In November 2024, over 200 educational psychologists signed an open letter addressed to education secretary Bridget Phillipson. The letter expressed concerns about the "processes and findings of the Cass review" and the impact of the Cass Review on children and young people in education.[214] That same month, the healthcare division of the RAND Corporation (a US-based research institute), released its own systematic review into treatments for trans and gender expansive young people, in which it described several similarities and differences between its own approach and that of the Cass Review.[l] The report rated the existing evidence base as having low and very low certainty, but also found the treatments to be low risk and with little evidence of side-effects, regret, or dissatisfaction.[m] It said the Cass Review was "highly comprehensive", but said its findings may have limited applicability outside the context of the NHS.[n]
On 9 May 2025 a critical evaluation of the Cass report and its seven commissioned reviews was published in BMC Medical Research Methodology. Using an independent Risk of Bias (ROBIS) tool, the evaluation identified a "high risk of bias" in all seven reviews as well as "methodological flaws", "unsubstantiated claims", and "misrepresentation of evidence".[218][219]

Wikipedia is completely captured on gender issues. No sensible person is going to pay much attention to its critique of Dr Cass.

Gizlotsmum · 19/05/2025 16:01

TransMother · 19/05/2025 13:01

As the parent of a trans identifying child, the opening part does read very much like judgement about parents' handling of this situation.

But I don't need or want your judgement. I need support. I'm as sex realist as they come, but that hasn't stopped my child from believing in this ideology.

It's true many of us parents are "non gender confirming" or went through phases in our youth when we dressed androgynously, but back then there was no social media encouraging us to take cross sex hormones or plastic surgery to "fix" us.

Cut us and our children some slack.

I feel this so much. My child is trans identifying but currently not looking to take hormones or take it further than name and pronoun change. They are much happier now and to be honest that is what matters to me. If in time they want to take hormones we will have further discussions and make sure they understand as much as possible all the implications.

They have cut their hair shorter but haven’t changed how they dress. Have been raised in a family where roles aren’t particularly gender specific/typical in and out of the home.

Sabire9 · 19/05/2025 16:02

@TheKeatingFive

"Wikipedia is completely captured on gender issues. No sensible person is going to pay much attention to its critique of Dr Cass."

YOU are 'completely captured on gender issues'.

You're absolutely obsessed. You've written tens of thousands of angry words on this issue on mumsnet. Like, literally given over hours and hours of your life to posting about it.

Bizarre.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 19/05/2025 16:06

Strangerthanfictions · 19/05/2025 15:58

But you did say all kids go through a phase of questioning which is absolutely nonsense.

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No it's not.

My DD told me she wants to be a dog. She's also asked if she can be a binman (her words not mine), a mermaid, and a cooker (I think she meant chef). Today she asked if she can marry Daddy when she grows up.

My answers were:

"No, you're a human and we can't change species, you can like dogs though and do some of the same things".
"Yes, if you want, start by putting your rubbish in the bin".
"No, sadly mermaids don't exist and if they did they'd be a different species, but you can try and swim like one".
"Yes, if you want, let's go learn some cooking".
"No, you're not allowed to marry your family but you can find your own husband or wife to marry".

What makes "I want to be a boy" in this respect any different to "I want to be a dog"?

Kids start to notice differences and they question them. They notice things they like and question them and themselves in relation to it.

If, when she is older, she comes and says she thinks she might be a man instead of a woman, it's a completely different conversation. But as a child, they all question differences and what that means for themselves.

TreeDudette · 19/05/2025 16:14

I guess that is easy to say when you aren't faced with it. My daughter claims she is trans and should be a boy. She is 14. She has been saying this for about a year. I went with a really low key approach to this when she first brought it up and explained that I supported her and loved her no matter what and if she preferred the contracted for of her name which was non-gendered I'd use that. I don't refer to her as he but I also appreciate the clothes she buys and am positive about her style (think masculine goth with a side order of punk). I am happy to get her regular hair cuts so she can keep her short style and even bought her "binders" although I did inspect them and they look like a front fastening sports bra to me and she has nothing to bind at the moment!

Today she asked about puberty blockers and I've told her the NHS don't approve those for use in under 18s anymore so she can't.

At what point do I start to drift into unsupportive. Certainly I don't want to push her into anything but I also don't want to lose her confidence and trust by denying her. I don't think she is trans, I think she is a confused 14 year old autistic girl but that doesn't help me to know how to navigate this thin thin line!

Sabire9 · 19/05/2025 16:18

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos

Lovely, thoughtful, intelligent, sensitive framing of gender dysphoria as actually being not meaningfully different to a toddler saying they want to be a dog.

I would love to listen to you having a conversation with an adult transgender person in which you use this analogy to explain to them why their transgenderism is nothing more than a ridiculous fantasy.🤔

TheKeatingFive · 19/05/2025 16:20

Sabire9 · 19/05/2025 16:02

@TheKeatingFive

"Wikipedia is completely captured on gender issues. No sensible person is going to pay much attention to its critique of Dr Cass."

YOU are 'completely captured on gender issues'.

You're absolutely obsessed. You've written tens of thousands of angry words on this issue on mumsnet. Like, literally given over hours and hours of your life to posting about it.

Bizarre.

I am extremely angry (and sad) that parents and children have been put in this position and misled by the people who should be looking out for their interests.

If you think that's bizarre, fine, why would I care?

CantStopMoving · 19/05/2025 16:20

TreeDudette · 19/05/2025 16:14

I guess that is easy to say when you aren't faced with it. My daughter claims she is trans and should be a boy. She is 14. She has been saying this for about a year. I went with a really low key approach to this when she first brought it up and explained that I supported her and loved her no matter what and if she preferred the contracted for of her name which was non-gendered I'd use that. I don't refer to her as he but I also appreciate the clothes she buys and am positive about her style (think masculine goth with a side order of punk). I am happy to get her regular hair cuts so she can keep her short style and even bought her "binders" although I did inspect them and they look like a front fastening sports bra to me and she has nothing to bind at the moment!

Today she asked about puberty blockers and I've told her the NHS don't approve those for use in under 18s anymore so she can't.

At what point do I start to drift into unsupportive. Certainly I don't want to push her into anything but I also don't want to lose her confidence and trust by denying her. I don't think she is trans, I think she is a confused 14 year old autistic girl but that doesn't help me to know how to navigate this thin thin line!

I can totally understand that as a parent this is just the most awful dilemma. I have no idea how exactly would react to this.

I would, however, point out that they might see themselves as male but the vast majority of society will never see them that way. They can take the puberty blockers and change their appearance but they will always remain female. This point has to be made forcefully all along the journey even if you are being supportive. If they still go ahead then as an 18 year old they can but they need to know that society does not view them as male.

i think when the final Guidance regarding the School judgement comes out it should make it easier to be able to demonstrate that the law will always se them as their sex and not how they present themselves.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 19/05/2025 16:21

Sabire9 · 19/05/2025 16:18

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos

Lovely, thoughtful, intelligent, sensitive framing of gender dysphoria as actually being not meaningfully different to a toddler saying they want to be a dog.

I would love to listen to you having a conversation with an adult transgender person in which you use this analogy to explain to them why their transgenderism is nothing more than a ridiculous fantasy.🤔

It was in response to someone saying "not all kids go through a phase of questioning things".

They do.

As I said in the very same post, if as a young adult, or when older it's a different conversation.

Context. Try it.

Bobafett2020 · 19/05/2025 16:24

Iloverosesandcarnations · 19/05/2025 11:15

All children go through a stage of who am I? Confusion etc.

Am I a boy, a girl, do I fit it etc.

The social contagion of affirmation of 'I'm in the wrong body, so need to change it' it IMO so damaging.

Talking through, understanding that all children go through 'who am I'
rather than initial blind affirmation and ok.lrts change your name, clothing etc tell school rush into changes young BEFORE maturation, is so dangerous.

But this is what happens, of course people dicuss it. It's a complete myth that parents immediately and blindly accept children as trans. Usually it's entirely the opposite. And there is zero evidence of social contagion. I realise it is pointless to jump into a mumsnet anti trans thread because it is one of the most radicalised groups in the country when it comes to transphobia but I'm just so sick of the lazy clichés, assumptions, and made up things that happened to somebody you know.

TheKeatingFive · 19/05/2025 16:31

Bobafett2020 · 19/05/2025 16:24

But this is what happens, of course people dicuss it. It's a complete myth that parents immediately and blindly accept children as trans. Usually it's entirely the opposite. And there is zero evidence of social contagion. I realise it is pointless to jump into a mumsnet anti trans thread because it is one of the most radicalised groups in the country when it comes to transphobia but I'm just so sick of the lazy clichés, assumptions, and made up things that happened to somebody you know.

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Why would you assume people are making things up?

MeDepresso · 19/05/2025 16:31

DC1 had an extended phase of stating they had the same accent as my mum (different country) They don't have our regional accent, and i guess some mental gymnastics led them to their conclusion.
Nothing we said made DC1 change their position on it.
They were about 10. I must just be an ineffective parent.(they are autistic, if that's relevant).

Sabire9 · 19/05/2025 16:37

@TheKeatingFive

"I am extremely angry (and sad) that parents and children have been put in this position and misled by the people who should be looking out for their interests."

You're 'extremely angry and sad' that people identify as a gender different to the sex they were born with, and that as a society we've made moves to accommodate transgender people to live their lives on their own terms?

Can't you find something more important to obsess about that how other people see themselves and want to live their lives?

Can't you just ignore the existence of transgender people? It would be easy - there are so few of them. Just stop constantly seeking out information that makes you hate them and feel the need to campaign constantly to have everyone else feel the same way about transgender people that you do.

TheKeatingFive · 19/05/2025 16:38

Sabire9 · 19/05/2025 16:37

@TheKeatingFive

"I am extremely angry (and sad) that parents and children have been put in this position and misled by the people who should be looking out for their interests."

You're 'extremely angry and sad' that people identify as a gender different to the sex they were born with, and that as a society we've made moves to accommodate transgender people to live their lives on their own terms?

Can't you find something more important to obsess about that how other people see themselves and want to live their lives?

Can't you just ignore the existence of transgender people? It would be easy - there are so few of them. Just stop constantly seeking out information that makes you hate them and feel the need to campaign constantly to have everyone else feel the same way about transgender people that you do.

I don't particularly want to ignore my relative who has de-transitioned thanks all the same. I love her and care about what happens to her.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 19/05/2025 16:44

Sabire9 · 19/05/2025 16:37

@TheKeatingFive

"I am extremely angry (and sad) that parents and children have been put in this position and misled by the people who should be looking out for their interests."

You're 'extremely angry and sad' that people identify as a gender different to the sex they were born with, and that as a society we've made moves to accommodate transgender people to live their lives on their own terms?

Can't you find something more important to obsess about that how other people see themselves and want to live their lives?

Can't you just ignore the existence of transgender people? It would be easy - there are so few of them. Just stop constantly seeking out information that makes you hate them and feel the need to campaign constantly to have everyone else feel the same way about transgender people that you do.

People can live their lives however they want. (Truly) Transgender people themselves are not an issue.

The problem lies in how quick society is to make accommodations that harm other demographics. How quick people are to jump onto someone who is questioning or confused to "accept" them when what they might actually need is some help sorting through their confusion and thoughts.

It's great that society as a whole wants to accept people for who they are. It's just that the way it's happening is damaging more people than it's helping.

Jellycatspyjamas · 19/05/2025 16:58

But this is what happens, of course people dicuss it. It's a complete myth that parents immediately and blindly accept children as trans. Usually it's entirely the opposite. And there is zero evidence of social contagion.

Of course people discuss it, it’s been an ongoing conversation in my house for the past four years with my autistic DD with a complex trauma history. She’s very vulnerable to suggestion from others and most of her friends are gender questioning in some way. She’s sure she’s a girl but also very confused about where she fits, and thinks she needs to be questioning in some way to fit in with her peers.

Theres absolutely an element of peer influence/social contagion around trans identity in teens.

Original poster

Iloverosesandcarnations · 19/05/2025 17:11

akkakk · 19/05/2025 15:08

This is exactly why the fight for truth and reality has to continue.

While we have a world where messages bombard children with lies that they can be anything they want to be (whether that is influencer / celebrity / the opposite sex); then a child has no real reference to reality.

While we have schools and organisations telling children lies that they can become the opposite sex - rather than teaching them the truth of biological reality, that you will always remain your natal sex and teaching them how to navigate puberty / adolescence and all the confusion that comes with that; then children have no idea of the natural boundaries

While we have governments of politicians that believe that a man can become a woman or that some women have a penis, then the lies start high and wide and appear to become the truth - how does a child know to not believe the lies being told by those in charge?

While we have sexism and narrowly defined gender perceptions in society - that girls and boys play with different toys / that pink is a girly colour / that certain jobs are for men and others for women; then how do children know how to express themselves as the more sensitive boy / more 'robust' girl whose interests are not easily pigeonholed into their sex / gender by society?

While we have an oppressive society that puts men first and women well below, how does a girl grow up and not want to become a man with all the apparent advantages - seeing a sex change as a way out of oppression?

While we have toxic masculinity that believes that men can ride roughshod over women - how does a boy learn to see transwomen as men so often playing out fantasies about being in women's spaces and realise that is wrong?

While we have social media that is allowed to rip through society telling any lies it wishes without anyone doing anything about it, and when children are exposed to it without the strength to handle it or fight back, how is a child meant to stand up and be different? If they are told to change sex to conform, how do they know that is a lie and wrong?

While we see organisations as 'grown-up' as banks and NHS and unions publicly declaring that they are going to disobey the law and that the Supreme Court judgment is wrong - how do our children learn to discern or judge or trust who is right?

While we allow our children to grow up in a society that is increasingly disintegrating, where social media, peers and unregulated organisations influence more than parents and local community who know the child - how is a child to discern truth from lie and know how to navigate their teenage years?

We need a return to truth - as has been referenced for years this is the Emperor's New Clothes - society knows that sex is immutable and that you can not transition from one to the other - yet weakness and power plays allows the myth to continue - and damage our children.

Until we return to the truth, it will be almost impossible for parents to provide enough counter-balance. There are great parenting comments above - especially the approach of confirming choice and identity and lifestyle (e.g. play / jobs / dress / etc.) while also confirming the biological truth that you can't change sex. Not - you can become a girl, but you can be the boy you want to be - not you can become a boy, but you can be any girl you wish... But even with these, the weight of deception and deceit in society is so huge it becomes a losing battle for parents.

There is no doubt, this will become the nation's biggest safeguarding scandal of all time - when we look back in 20 years we will be horrified at the lives damaged and lost by society perpetuating lies and taking children by the hand and starting hopeless journeys to the impossible, with all the physical and mental damage that entails.

It is understandable that some parents will object to the OPs comments - they will feel personally attacked and understandably, (despite there being no personal attack against them), but that doesn't mean that we should be quiet about the needs - sadly those who are already casualties will never fully heal, but we can fight to avoid new casualties.

And it starts with truth. The momentous fact about the April SC judgment at its most basic is that it unequivocally confirms that this is a black and white matter - you are boy or girl / man or woman and that can not change. That one fundamental fact re-established and put centre-stage means that we can start to re-build an honest society from there. Whatever the lies and deceitful arguments that will be put forward with re-doubled energy by those whose credibility relies on the lies being believed - we can now always return to the basic biological and factual reality which can not be denied. From that point we can start to rebuild guidance / advice / help / support etc. so that our children as they enter their teenage years, with puberty changing their hormones, with wider circles of influence challenging them - can have a grounded certainty in who they are biologically - giving them far more freedom to express themselves how they wish...

...they can be any shape of boy or girl they choose - they just can't change sex.

💯

OP posts:

Bobafett2020 · 19/05/2025 17:19

Iloverosesandcarnations · 19/05/2025 17:11

💯

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But it fundamentally isn't black and white, which is why scientists in their hundreds have written to the BMA to protest. For the vast majority of people it is black and white but there exist a number of genetic, chromosomal and epigenetic abnormalities which mean that sex is ambiguous. In fact we none of us know what our chromosomes are unless we have had them tested. The good law project are now legally challenging the ruling. I pray that they win.

TransMother · 19/05/2025 17:24

Bobafett2020 · 19/05/2025 17:19

But it fundamentally isn't black and white, which is why scientists in their hundreds have written to the BMA to protest. For the vast majority of people it is black and white but there exist a number of genetic, chromosomal and epigenetic abnormalities which mean that sex is ambiguous. In fact we none of us know what our chromosomes are unless we have had them tested. The good law project are now legally challenging the ruling. I pray that they win.

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No, sex is binary. Sex is never ambiguous.

Every single person on Earth knows the sex of their mother. You don't need a chromosome test for that knowledge.

Stop peddling lies. Educate yourself FFS.

akkakk · 19/05/2025 17:29

Bobafett2020 · 19/05/2025 17:19

But it fundamentally isn't black and white, which is why scientists in their hundreds have written to the BMA to protest. For the vast majority of people it is black and white but there exist a number of genetic, chromosomal and epigenetic abnormalities which mean that sex is ambiguous. In fact we none of us know what our chromosomes are unless we have had them tested. The good law project are now legally challenging the ruling. I pray that they win.

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Fortunately it is black and white:

legally
biologically

There is no such thing as a third sex.
There are indeed many genetic and other abnormalities - but they are all abnormalities to a base sex - all those with an intersex disorder / DSD are still either male or female - just a differently developed version... you do such people a dis-service if you remove their biological identity.

Will be fascinated to see what the Good Law Project do - they have no legal basis to challenge the SC judgement, nor do they exactly have the finest track record in winning cases 😏

TransMother · 19/05/2025 17:30

METR0NOMY · 19/05/2025 15:48

My child is 18. Biologically female, autistic. All the usual profile. Why do you ask?

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@MeDepresso is right, Bayswater Support Group is an incredible group of people where you will find no judgement and lots of support. Get yourself there, if you haven't already.

My autistic child was also 18 when she told us she was trans, I hear you ((hug)).

Sabire9 · 19/05/2025 17:33

"While we have schools and organisations telling children lies that they can become the opposite sex - rather than teaching them the truth of biological reality, that you will always remain your natal sex and teaching them how to navigate puberty / adolescence and all the confusion that comes with that; then children have no idea of the natural boundaries"

What is this absolute nonsense?

Everyone acknowledges the existence of biological sex. But people can and do 'transition' and live their lives with a different gender identity.

Why is it impossible for you to acknowledge that people's gender identity isn't always congruent with their biological sex, and for some people this will influence the way they see themselves and choose to live their lives?

It's like you think if you scream the reality of transgender people's biological sex in their face over and over again, they'll no longer want to transition. Your words are the words of someone who never listens to transgender people. Doesn't care about them. And yet think they know more about their lives, their minds and their needs than they do.

TheKeatingFive · 19/05/2025 17:38

Bobafett2020 · 19/05/2025 17:19

But it fundamentally isn't black and white, which is why scientists in their hundreds have written to the BMA to protest. For the vast majority of people it is black and white but there exist a number of genetic, chromosomal and epigenetic abnormalities which mean that sex is ambiguous. In fact we none of us know what our chromosomes are unless we have had them tested. The good law project are now legally challenging the ruling. I pray that they win.

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It is though.

Every single person who ever lived is either male or female. Ie has a body structured around the production of small gametes or large gametes.

There are DSDs, all of which can be classified as either male or female. In some rare cases it can take a bit of investigation as to what sex someone is, but it can always be determined.

Besides, this has nothing to do with being trans. There is (as far as I can see) zero connection between having a DSD and being trans.