Are parents of 'Trans' children aware of the damage of full affirmation?

[Iloverosesandcarnations]

All children go through a stage of who am I? Confusion etc.

Am I a boy, a girl, do I fit it etc.

The social contagion of affirmation of 'I'm in the wrong body, so need to change it' it IMO so damaging.

Talking through, understanding that all children go through 'who am I'
rather than initial blind affirmation and ok.lrts change your name, clothing etc tell school rush into changes young BEFORE maturation, is so dangerous.

Sorry to butt in, but I think it is worth being extremely specific here, to avoid any doubts.

The presentation of sex markers can in some, very rare cases, be ambiguous. The underlying sex however won't be.

I am in total agreement with your post. I just know how any ripples in the argument can get exploited.

Zero evidence of social contagion?! 😂
Have you seen social media?
Do you know how teenagers are influenced by each other and by social media?
Have you seen the statistics and growth points in numbers of children believing that they are the 'wrong sex' despite that being an impossible thing?!

The issue with the line of reasoning you use is that it is now grounded in fact / and is actually harmful to the very group you claim to protect. mumsnet is not anti-trans - it is anti-opression of women (quite reasonable really) / anti men taking over women's spaces / anti men shutting down the discussion / anti-lies / anti-distortion of truths / anti the current perverted view that people can change biological sex / anti the damage those lies are doing to children / anti a societal position that prioritises damaging surgery over necessary mental health support - purely to validate the living lies of a few...

none of that is anti those who actually have body dysmorphia, who struggle with their daily lives with a mental health condition that makes them believe they are in the wrong body... in fact mumsnet is incredibly compassionate towards those with genuine personal issues...

and you need to understand the words you use transphobia means fear of those who transition.

• it is not possible to transition from male to female or vice versa - biologically impossible.
• there is no observable fear - there is crossness with the lies and deceptions and there is compassion and sadness for those who have suffered, often irreversibly in pursuit of a distorted concept they have been fed - but not fear.

So - not transphobia...

I think we're all very much alert to the multiple strategies deployed to try to shut this c

Whoops

Shut this conversation down.

But that's exactly what's allowed the lies and deception to flourish.

Speaking out is key and MN has long recognised this as a platform.

But you can't change sex and gender is a social construct.

You can be male and wear a dress, make-up, heels, paint your home pink, as many stereotypically "girl" things as you like. Honestly, people, for the most part, don't care.

What a male can't do is be female. A man cannot be a woman. And vice versa. And this is the lie many trans people have been sold. And the problem is that so many people believe that a man living as a woman is now a woman that it's starting to damage women and their rights and safety.

Add into that people telling young children who are just questioning the world "yes, girl, you absolutely can be a boy" or "yes, boy, we can change you into a girl" when it's not actually possible and we're on a very dangerous road as a society.

It's not about telling trans people we know their minds and needs better than them. This is biology. It's fact. And telling people things that are not possible just to try and make them feel seen and accepted is not helping them.

I'm not taking credit for this because I saw it on another site, but ...

How did we go from wanting to challenge and overcome gender stereotypes ... to ... deciding they are so important that people need drugs and surgery to better align with them.

It genuinely blows my mind.

👏

Trans people on the whole aren’t the problem. Trans people have always existed and it’s never been a problem. The problem thanks to the trans lobby is that now unless you go along with what effectively is the Emperor’s New Clothes 100% and believe that men can actually become women and vice versa, you are going to get called a bigot, sacked from your job (which happened) and cancelled.
You. Can’t. Change. Sex. Anything you wear or what modification you do to your body will never change that fact. You can have your own feelings you can’t have your own facts.

When women started being negatively impacted in prisons, workplaces, sports, rape crisis groups, crime stats being incorrectly recorded, language being erased, and women not being allowed to have literally one space for themselves is what the problem is and became. You can’t identify as a different race or age, but sex is fair game?

What even is a gender identity? Define it.

sorry - typo: not grounded in fact rather than now grounded in fact!

"Mumsnet is not anti-trans" lol

I am so scared about the world my DD is growing up in. There is no winning for her.

Either she's going to grow into a woman and have her rights trampled all over or she's going to question her gender and have her educational institutions essentially push her into believing she can change.

You can only keep it for so long - affirming to child but at heart have a healthy scepticism aka really have a problem with any community that affirms surgery rather than digging deep and realising pride in your body is the hard work. Which is why at heart feel it’s a philosophy driven by superficiality of binarism.

Glad I got that out of my system.

It's not. MNetters quite simply don't want women's rights being trampled all over.

Trans rights should exist. Just not at the expense of women's rights, or any other groups rights.

YABU for posting this in AIBU. Take it Iver to where all the other anti trans posts are.

Can you really not see the difference between "anti-trans" and "I'm worried about damage to our children"?

We can be supportive of trans people AND worry that the messages to our children are wrong. Two things can be true at once.

Yet another attempt to shut down conversation/send it to the naughty corner.

This attitude is causing so many problems.

The ‘you’re all anti-trans’ posters don’t really have much more than that, let alone actual examples. I’m not sure why posters who don’t want to discuss something find it so hard to just scroll on by and find a thread that does interest them instead of dictating where threads should go.

All the anti trans crap posted is causing more IMO. But then again I am one of those people who are in the live and let live camp.

You're doing a cracking job of living and let live by dictating what people on a public forum can discuss.

Because we are allowed to have opinions too. There is a specific feminism board for a reason. So you can post your anti trans stuff there and the majority who don't need to see it can hide the board more easily.

If everyone is allowed opinions, why can't this one be here?

Discuss what you want but there is a whole separate board where all your cronies can hang out and spout their anti views and which other scan then more easily hide and not have to even bother with. There is enough hatred in the world with right wing fascist views being forced on us without the anti trans crap too.

Exactly this!

@Sabire9
I am sorry - there is so much wrong in what you are saying:

Everyone acknowledges the existence of biological sex. But people can and do 'transition' and live their lives with a different gender identity.

Not everyone acknowledges the existence of biological sex being immutable - hence the need for the recent court case and judgement. People can't transition / live life with a different gender identity - they simple push boundaries on society's concept of gender...

Why is it impossible for you to acknowledge that people's gender identity isn't always congruent with their biological sex, and for some people this will influence the way they see themselves and choose to live their lives?

You are completely misunderstanding gender identity.

• Gender is a social construct / a shorthand for how we recognise a man or a woman, a boy or girl.
• It is a lazy concept that says that girls wear pink and dresses / can only do certain jobs / boys don't cry / boys have to be tough / boys play with guns and climb trees and play football etc.
• Of course it has nothing to do with their biological sex - the two have zero relationship, it is a societal habit. However, by arguing that in adopting elements of the 'other gender' you somehow change sex - that argument itself states that gender is congruent with biological sex (i.e. only women wear lipstick / dresses and have soft skin - therefore as I have soft skin / lipstick and wear a dress I am a woman)
• The argument that a man becomes a woman simply because they have some shared gender characteristics - reinforces gender stereotypes instead of challenging them - unhelpful to all.
• Instead we should be celebrating the extension of gender stereotypes - if a boy wants to play with dolls - great, we need more sensitive boys in society / if a girl wants to climb trees and be a builder - great we need more girls like that...

Adopting gender characteristics labelled by society as belonging to the other sex doesn't make you change sex - it doesn't even make you transition in gender - it simply helps to expand and redefine the gender you are.

A man is a man / a woman is a woman - and that is that.

It's like you think if you scream the reality of transgender people's biological sex in their face over and over again, they'll no longer want to transition. Your words are the words of someone who never listens to transgender people. Doesn't care about them. And yet think they know more about their lives, their minds and their needs than they do.

It is not possible for someone to transition:

• biologically you remain your natal sex - you can not change it.
• gender, you don't transition, as gender is a fluid societal concept, you simply help to redefine what society sees as male and female. Historically men wore high heels / wigs / make-up / stockings / etc. Blue as a girl's colour and pink the boy's colour until it changed -> societal perceptions of male and female have continually changed over the centuries... So you can continue to see it change and redefine it - but you can't change from one to the other...
• A man adopting societal perceptions of a woman is not seen as a woman - they are seen as a different sort of man (and v.v.) and that is good...

challenging stereotypes = good
lying and spreading a belief that somehow you can change and that a man can become a woman (and v.v.) = bad

Someone on a local FB page has put up a post asking about therapy for her 10 year old who has body dysmorphic disorder. I have a close family member that has suffered with that for about 35 years. I don’t understand why gender dysphoria is viewed differently and not treated therapeutically as theses seem to be different presentations of similar mental health issues.

It really doesn’t matter what you think or feel about it, or how many people respond with “oh I agree OP”.

Every piece of legitimate research shows the complete and utter opposite. & don’t get me started on the “social contagion” nonsense which is an entirely made up, unevidenced concept.

People have legitimate concerns surrounding trans issues, but they become easier and easier to dismiss the more people drone on about issue like this. Issues they have no actual knowledge of and basically just “feel” that it’s wrong because they don’t like it. They don’t care what the actual reality is.

It’s not anti-trans. People can post where and what they like. There’s plenty on AIBU they can be attributed to a particular board. Big claps for you though for trying to shut down conversation.