DH won't let daughter go on school trip to mosque

[RealUmberAnt]

I'm shocked and appalled!! He (M41)says he doesn't want her (DD12) learning about people who marry there daughters off at 9 years old and all their women are oppressed and forced to cover up and do as their told!

I feel like he's taring all Muslims with the same brush and it's good to learn about other religions and see other places of worship!

I'm so mad!! I honestly don't think I can stay with someone who has these opinions!!

You can't compare the two. A woman who doesn't have breast surgery isn't considered unclean, loose, unsuitable for marriage and ostracised. Her family won't lose social status and she won't be blocked from community life.

So I think I ignored something here. I mentioned Somali women earlier - and the response spoke as if all Somali women are from one community with the same values. That isnt the case. It's more like small communities in some countries practice FGM. In some countries, lots of small(er) communities practice this so it makes up a sizeable amount of the population.

This is the same as cosmetic surgery here. Small(er) communities practice it and reinforce it as a societal value. The difference is that our wider society, often who don't share these values, have monetised and therefore legitimised it. So it would be like of those countries doing what I said earlier and training surgeons to perform FGM on adults in safer conditions.

In Somalia nearly 100% of girls undergo FGM, the majority between the ages of 5-9. It's considered a requirement for marriage and means the family gains social acceptance.

The vast majority of women in the UK do not undergo cosmetic surgery. I don't know of any clans or communities in the UK that enforce cosmetic surgery and ostracise those that don't. I don't know of any groups that pressure girls to have plastic surgery before marriage

The type of FGM is changing to less extreme forms. When you speak about FGM, typing is very important. Some people who know that type 4 FGM includes many practices considered legal here avoid the discussion in that context. But medically, it's important.

For the record, I am very pleased that the IPSOS survey I shared previously (if it hasn’t been deleted) shows many areas of shared values we have with Muslims. It has been an informative read.

I do strongly believe however, that just as we criticise the bad parts of Christianity and Jehovahs Witnesses etc, we must also be able to freely discuss and criticise the bad bits of Islam both here and abroad.

That is the way we can move forward more harmoniously, not with raging accusations of racism and Islamophobia which mean nothing and don’t add anything to anyone’s understanding.

And when it comes to societal pressure, there is both real and imagined pressure when you don't meet societal standards of beauty. As well as ostracisation. It's just that we have an ethnocentric view of what counts in that respect.

My whole point with this is that true concern about consent and autonomy would start at home.

I haven't seen numerous critical threads on any religion apart from Islam on here.

It's not important because of consent. A five year old can't consent to any of the forms of FGM and a woman brought up in a culture where FGM means she can marry and gain social status doesn't have a choice.

No one has the right to touch anyone without freely given consent.

So we are back to where I ask if women from these other cultures can ethically consent to such procedures and you say no because they might be too influenced by their community.

You may notice from my post history that J bow out when it becomes circular.

There's no 'might', they are ostracised and can't marry. They're often seen as defective, unclean and promiscuous. It can have severe consequences on their families. In Somalia for example, it's a strong cultural norm where nearly 100% of girls have been cut.

I meant society in general, but there is some quite enthusiastic criticism of Christianity on this thread.

Again, if you are so desperate to see a thread on Mumsnet criticising Christianity or Jehovah’s Witnesses (who have been criticised so extensively they are the offline equivalent of a meme) or whichever other religion you’d like to see, feel free to start one.

I mean the consent argument with regards less invasive forms of FGM equally applies to male circumcision but our society has decided that’s a form of genital mutilation we are very ok lack of consent (although why does discussion of islam come to FGM unlike male circumcision it’s actually not a requirement of the faith).

I know it's not a requirement of the faith. I also believe circumcision shouldn't be done on children.

He is a parent and he has always right to decide as well as you. I'm muslim and my dd goes to guides held in a church. I dont believe she's going to get 'turned'. She knows who she is and where she is from and if she chooses something different for herself in the future then that's up to her. She hasn't been on any trips to other places of worship with school because school haven't arranged any but neither of us would have any issues if she did. My kids have been in their respective nativity plays. She has friends who are christian, and atheists and is more open minded at age 9 than many of rhe posters on here.

Your dh sounds unpleasant.

Just wanted to jump on and thank everyone who commented (good and bad!!) I'm still trying to get through all the replies but didn't want it to seem I had posted and run!

are all the bigots and experts doing I can’t see it with this post? Unbelievably rational and measured response considering the other posts I wouldn’t have been able to do the same!

I think @Pickled21 has probably confounded them by being far too measured and reasonable.