DH won't let daughter go on school trip to mosque

[RealUmberAnt]

I'm shocked and appalled!! He (M41)says he doesn't want her (DD12) learning about people who marry there daughters off at 9 years old and all their women are oppressed and forced to cover up and do as their told!

I feel like he's taring all Muslims with the same brush and it's good to learn about other religions and see other places of worship!

I'm so mad!! I honestly don't think I can stay with someone who has these opinions!!

So if women from cultures that value FGM (including ours) want to have type 3 FGM in a Harley Street clinic, they should be allowed to?

Is your only issue that it's performed on.children? Because some cultures actually don't perform it on children at all. It's performed on young adults as a rite of passage to adulthood. So are you okay with that type of FGM?

The difference is that while all of you talking will be aware of the sect I'm talking about, you don't care what they do because they're essentially white people and things like oppression of women aren't actually your priorities.

If you did care, you'd be out in Gateshead, Stamford Hill and Manchester doing something about it. Instead you talk shit about Muslims online.

I think it's pretty obvious that I'm not in favour of any mutilation of girls or women.

Unfortunately in some cultures, women risk being ostracized if they don't have it. They won't be able to get married and it's seen as an essential rite of passage.

Education on the dangers of FGM is scarce and women may consent because they don't know the dangers or feel pressurised to do so.

The vast majority of FGM is carried out on children.

When you say 'including ours', do you mean the UK? I'm afraid to inform you that it's illegal.

It's illegal for some women, not others.

Have you ever read the classifications of FGM? Particularly type 4?

I think you know we're not permitted to do anything or even express concerns. The same goes for Islam.

Good question. They should be.

As explained above the two procedures are not comparable and that's because of consent.

If consent is not freely given, then it's not consent. A child can't give consent and I understand that babies are having FGM in the UK to circumvent the law.

If a woman is undertaking FGM because if she doesn't she's a child, unclean or can't marry, then that's not consent.

If a woman agrees but has no idea of the potential ramifications such as infection,death, menstrual problems, problems with sex and childbirth - that's not consent.

Islam is no different to any other religion. There is growing Islamophobia on the thread I see. My Niece is going backpacking to Asia ( muslim countries) and is concerned it is less safe than Christian countries. I told her she either goes and stops her ingrained racist views / Islamophobia or she will literally be a bigot and yes I will be checking receipts! The daily fail readers, reform voters are turning us into a nation of hatred and we must oppose the far right and their hatred.

"If a woman is undertaking FGM because if she doesn't she's a child, unclean or can't marry, then that's not consent."

But we don't forbid labioplasty because someone thinks it makes them a more worthy mate or human. And this is my point. If you're against FGM, you should be against all of it. Type 4 FGM specifies genital piercing for example. Are you down your local, legal, piercing studio and ensuring they don't do labial or clitoral piercing as it's a type of FGM?

Learning this as a student midwife is what prompted me to look at consent, cosmetic procedures, and ethnocentricity. All we've done is legitimise our versions of extreme body modification to meet societal values by getting surgeons to do it for money (or sometimes on the state). That's how we've lowered risk to health - by teaching our experts to perform these operations.

That doesnt mean FGM should not be banned, but it might mean we should make our laws and our attitudes more uniform when it comes to these types of issues.

@MyOliveHelper

But we don't forbid labioplasty because someone thinks it makes them a more worthy mate or human

That's entirely up to them. They're adults and live in a culture where trimming the labia is not a requirement for marriage, for adulthood or to protect their virginity.

They are having the surgery under sterile conditions, are fully informed of the risk and no one apart from them cares if they have it or not.

We stopped DC from going to a Mosque visit because it was in a rough area known for drugs, prostitutes and violence.

The Mosque also had produced a number of high profile Isis figures and a teenage girl had ended up out there.

The school were trying to pressure us into changing our minds.

Sorry but rough area? What did you think was going to happen on a school trip? Your daughter would be coerced into county lines and sex work whilst the teacher spoke to another child?

I find it slightly less than believable that a Mosque linked with extremism is inviting primary school visits in the name of community cohesion.

I mean it’s pretty obvious what they think. This them and us attitude is absolutely mental and it’s so depressing and stupid yet you all think you’re so clever for it

This exactly!

So you'd be comfortable with some forms of FGM for say, Somali women, under these conditions? On the private market, of course but in the UK?

I’ve got no idea which sect you are talking about and do not live anywhere near Gateshead, Stamford Hill or Manchester. If I was a knew what you were talking about I might stand a chance of having an opinion on it.

And no, people are not ‘talking shit’ about Muslims online, we are attempting to have a sensible discussion about beliefs and boundaries but you do you.

So you’ve read the IPSIS MORI survey that says 52% of UK Muslims think that homosexuality should be illegal? Are you comfortable with that?

How should we integrate that into our thinking if you want to remove the ‘them and us’ attitude?

Ask why you might have some idea about what Muslims do in other countries, but have no idea what exists openly in your own country.

You know many of the "I left a cult" support groups are heavily populated by white Jehovah Witnesses?

I've already explained that I don't agree with FGM for women and girls. I've explained that it's a question of consent. Consent must be given freely with the ability to withdraw consent at any time with no negative repercussions.

I'm not sure why you chose Somalia where FGM is deeply engrained in the culture and a girl and her family face severe repercussions if they don't do it.

A child can't consent and consent cannot be given freely if there are negative consequences upon refusal.

So you'd do it by culture. Two women could want the same exact surgery, but if one came from a culture where it was highly valued, and the other came from a culture where it was a beauty standard at the current time (like a smooth looking labia/vulva is at the moment in Western culture), you'd be okay with the latter consenting the surgery as an autonomous adult?

It's a question of consent. Consent must be freely given with the ability to withdraw consent at any time.

If a woman is forced or pressured to have surgery on her genitals it's wrong. It doesn't matter what country or culture she's from, it's wrong.

But how do you establish that a white western woman isnt feeling pressured to conform to societal expectations when she consents to a boob job? Remember not so long ago, you could get one on the NHS because they "understood" not having a certain size boobs could cause psychological distress.

Now you do have to get this privately. And people will use dodgy places to seek it out if the safe routes are inaccessible to them. The response to cultural pressure is the same.

Thanks. I am a Hindu by religion. There are extremists in all faiths. I went to a Methodist School, played an Angel in the Nativity Play and the Muslim portion of my family would have no problem in visiting a Church and similarly some have attended Church schools. The majority of Muslims would have no problems with attending a Church and did as I recall go on school trips to Wesley’s Chapel and York Minster. Albeit largely to have some fun in London and York respectively.

And I think Jehovahs Witnesses have some awful practices as well but this thread was started by OP talking about Muslims.

Feel free to start your own about Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Your ‘gotcha’ hunting is not very productive or conducive to conversation.

I think its very productive as it shows people only care about certain abhorrent acts when Muslims commit them. They don't even know when other groups do.