DH won't let daughter go on school trip to mosque

[RealUmberAnt]

I'm shocked and appalled!! He (M41)says he doesn't want her (DD12) learning about people who marry there daughters off at 9 years old and all their women are oppressed and forced to cover up and do as their told!

I feel like he's taring all Muslims with the same brush and it's good to learn about other religions and see other places of worship!

I'm so mad!! I honestly don't think I can stay with someone who has these opinions!!

Because it’s you that made claims over what they think in this country but your claims appear to be based on assumption and not fact.

Hence my suggestion about having open conversations with these people to hear their views which from the survey responses are not what you and pps claim and maybe not as ‘moderate’ as you would like.

I’m not sure why my suggestion for talking confused you so much? There are clearly mismatches beteeen opinion and fact here.

So after accusing me of insulting you and refusing to engage (please do point out any insult I have directed at you and I have engaged with you and answered many of your questions as everyone can see), you now accuse ppl of attacking you personally with her comments.

It appears you have great sensitivity to ‘insults’ and ‘attacks’, yet are happy to support other pps saying absolutely awful things about OPs husband and others.

What's stopping you from having open conversations with "these people" exactly? Can't you just get to know Muslim people in your community as you would get to know anyone else?

Also I don’t know why people are talking about criticising a religion? He wasn’t doing that. He was stereotyping over a billion people of diverse beliefs, cultures, erhnicities etc.
Because they happen to share a faith.
He’s a moron. Given intelligence is inherited I would be worried about how thick my kids may grow up to be.

This is what you said. I pointed out that you and many pps made an assumption that he was making a global generalisation but he may not have been. He may have been talking about that particular mosque as there are extreme preachers in some (hopefully very few) UK mosques. I am not lying - you made an assumption on exactly what OP s husband was referring to.

But my point is that it is pps that are making vast generalisations and assumptions about the views of the people they refer to as ‘moderate’ Muslims but as per the survey mentioned by @ThatPearlTraybake , homophobia (and other unpleasant views) among UK Muslims is widespread so either you and other pps are totally ill informed about who they are supporting and the knee jerk reactions against OP s husband are unwarranted or you are all are ok with homophobia?

I live near a religious sect where they worship separately. Women who see bleeding cannot be touched by men until they have a special bath. Women use a cloth in their underwear (or inside them?) to check if theyre bleeding after they believed they've stopped. If they see spotting or they are unsure, their husband takes this cloth thing to a male religious leader to show him and he will decide if she's actually stopped bleeding or not. This is because they believe women are unclean for 7 days after bleeding.

Young men are trafficked into marriages around the world and then shipped to foreign countries where theyre expected to dedicate their lives to religious study. Theyre told that even talking to your wife too much can distract you from that.

Some sects of this religious group have a word that translates roughly to "house" and that's what they call their wives.

There are strict modesty rules. These rules about the colour that tights should be and the exact length and cut of a skirt are discussed by men and community values are formulated. These aren't decided by individuals or even families, they're decided by community and religious leaders.

Boys dont do much education past the age of 13. There are several illegal and substandard schools and they alter the curriculum, removing science and other subjects, to ensure their children aren't taught anything other than their religious beliefs.

People who have left this religious group decide it as a cult at times. They have to undergo extreme therapy and rehabilitation. The men often leave near illiterate with poor English skills, despite being born and raised here.

I don't know any Muslims who live in such am isolated way.

So were you aware of the levels of homophobic views (and other questionable view expressed in the survey mentioned above widespread) among UK Muslims.

So many people on this thread have assumed all moderate Muslims share our views on various big topics and made knee jerk accusations accordingly. It appears that many don’t know what those views are at all (unless pps find homophobia to be acceptable?).

Hence my suggestion for more open conversations about who has what views and what we find acceptable in UK society. It’s really not that deep. Why are you and Milo so confused by the idea of encouraging more open conversations about this so we can move forward with greater understanding and possibly tolerance?

Surely it’s better than no conversation and increasingly polarised views as people start looking at the facts and realise they don’t like them while others cling to their assumptions?

Sex segregation is apparently not viewed as important. Why is that?

I'm not confused about encouraging open conversations at all. I just don't know what's stopping you from having those conversations.

Conversations are good. They help people to develop much more nuanced understanding of complex issues than the representations that I am seeing on this board.

I have plenty of conversations. I encourage you to do the same.

Ask Him if he’d let her go to the Vatican or St Paul’s Cathedral. All religion is steeped in misogyny.

That sounds awful and I totally disapprove of that sect but

a) have you missed the plight of an entire country of Muslim women in Afghanistan who are not only not allowed to be educated or work (meaning that women now struggle to get any healthcare at all) but now not even allowed to leave the house or stand near a rundown with visibility on the street? Not to mention the many other countries mr tinned above?

b) because one group of people are doing bad things we are now not allowed to criticise another group of people doing bad things that affects tens of millions?

You're talking about what happens abroad. I'm talking about who actually lives how in our neighbourhoods.

I presume he is equally aghast at the misogyny in our "own" British culture and actively calls out his friends for jokes in poor taste, for the lazy “banter” about psycho exes, the sexist jokes about women drivers, the casual dismissal of a colleague on maternity leave as "paid holiday". If he's so disgusted with what he sees as misogyny then I presume he doesn’t stay quiet when someone interrupts the only woman in the meeting three times in five minutes. He doesn’t excuse creepy behaviour as “just Dave being Dave.”

If he wants to be shocked, disgusted and against misogyny and oppression of women then that's great... I just hope he is equally as vocal about it what it is "at home".

If not, then on this point - he is a hypocrite and his objection is masking something else......

I have had conversations - I’ve had very nice conversations with some and I’ve had other conversations with the Muslim young men at my university who told us gleefully all the racist names they use for white people and their views on homosexuality (they were very anti),

I’ve had conversations with ex Muslims whose lives are under threat for leaving Islam and are speaking out about the very immoderate views of some (not all) Muslims in this country including the ones who have come here specifically to kill us (the ones MI5 are trying to keep an eye on but failing at times) and the ones that say it’s ok to rape and torture white girls because they are not Muslim.

I wasn’t talking about me specifically needing to have conversations, I think with the obvious levels of ignorance around Muslims displayed on this thread, it’s many others that need to have these conversations.

It's a bit much to imply the op's daughter is thick.

Ok. Assuming you are in the UK, it sounds like the authorities should be involved with your local sect - I do hope you have reported your concerns to the police and social services?

A) are you aware that in some areas in the UK many women are required to wear a full burka, don’t speak English and are very restricted in their lives?

And also in the UK not only have we have had to make laws against FGM (not exclusive to only Muslims beliefs but required by some and obligatory in certain strands of Islam) we have then had to make laws against taking girls abroad for FGM and train teachers and social workers to help prevent underage and forced marriage. Not to mention the number of ‘honour killings’ of Muslim women in this country.

b) my previous point b) stands.

So many assumptions about this man based on such a brief report of his views.

He (M41)says he doesn't want her (DD12) learning about people who marry there daughters off at 9 years old and all their women are oppressed and forced to cover up and do as their told!

I think it would be fair to assume there was more to this conversation that OP reports otherwise

OP: “Darling, little DC would like to go on this lovely trip to our local mosque”

DH: “No, because I don’t want her learning about people who marry there (sic) daughters off at 9 years old and all their women are oppressed and forced to cover up and do as their (sic) told” *

OP: ….

[runs off to criticise her husband on Mumsnet and solicit vast abuse to be heaped upon him as well as advice to leave him and that he’ll make his kids thick(!!) ]

And as it’s turned out so many people are making fact free claims about the views of a group that they are clearly ill informed about and have made a knee jerk reaction based on a tiny snippet of reported conversation. Unedifying.

*Note. I’m not sure if that’s @RealUmberAnt s spelling/typos or if she is reporting DHs spelling faithfully. Either way I think she should read up a bit on Islam in this country and abroad and have a more productive chat with DH instead of leaving him and model some adult behaviour in exchanging views in a mature way for DC.

I’m dreading my DD’s mosque visit as she’s a staunch feminist and will certainly ask all those difficult questions like why women have to cover up and men don’t and why the men’s area is nicer than the women’s. I hope they have some good answers as the disdain on her face will be very apparent!

Good job I didn’t.

If you read my post I was fairly explicit in terms of my rationale for why I declared him to be a moron.

It is not making an assumption to not make an assumption.

It’s baffling that you think stating a simple fact that you cannot “stereotype over a billion people people of different ethnicities, nationalities and cultures” is making an assumption.

That’s not making an assumption and if you think it is it’s because you actually don’t know what “making an assumption” means.

And I have not made any assumptions about the husband. I have commented on his words as reported by OP.

I am not going to assume OP is a liar. I will take what she says at face value as I do with all MNers unless they provide me with a reason to think they are lying.

(And your question about homophobia is asinine. I am opposed homophobia and also choose not to stereotype all muslims. It’s really not either / or.)

As someone who considers myself a very liberal lefty tolerant sort, I do think in the UK we have a real problem where some people bend over backwards to be tolerant to everything, to the extent that they tolerate intolerance.

It's okay to say that certain values and behaviours aren't acceptable in a modern civilised society, and to openly criticise them.

It is okay to say that men and women are equal, and it's not acceptable to pressure women to cover themselves to avoid tempting men.

It's okay to say that beheading someone because they have shown an image of a religious figure is in no way acceptable.

I even noticed people criticising the staff at Charlie Hebdo for the cartoon they published of prophet mohamed, because it 'incited violence'.

I think everyone has a right to view religious beliefs and actions with a critical eye, and everyone has a right to say they don't want their child exposed to certain beliefs being portrayed in a positive light.

And yes, every religion has its problems. The answer isn't to say you can't criticise any. The answer is to pay more attention.

I'd be amazed if the school visits to different places of worship involve balanced and nuanced discussion about people's beliefs and what's good and bad about them. Unfortunately I'd be concerned that every visit would paint the religion as being positive and all beliefs and actions worthy of respect under the name of religion. I'd be astounded if after the mosque visit the teacher leads a discussion on why women are expected to cover themselves in Islam, or why Catholics opposed abortion or why fundamentalist christianity doesn't accept gay marriage, and so forth.

You clearly did imply the op's daughter was thick;

He’s a moron. Given intelligence is inherited I would be worried about how thick my kids may grow up to be.

A little bit thick or very thick?

Our primary school arranged a visit to a Hindu temple a few years ago. The boys were sent to see the temple and the girls have to wait for them outside. It's showing the girls what little value is placed on girls and women in other religious. A lot of parents complained and there were no more trips to any temples where the girls are treated differently.

Can you point to where he said that? As I said earlier you don’t know which ‘they’ he was referring to. It could have been specifically been the local mosque. Or he could have met people like the racist and homophobic Muslim lads I knew at university - their view of women wasn’t great either. You have called him a moron based on a tiny and incomplete snippet of information.

And he wasn’t ‘stereotyping’, he was pointing out aspects of the Islamic faith and practices that he thinks is wrong. Why should he not be allowed to criticise that?