My 84yr old Mum asked if she should be addressed as a Woman

[Horrace]

Yesterday my 84yr old Mum had to be interviewed by the police after witnessing a sudden death of a close friend. The death was traumatic in itself and happened abroad.
The first question the officer asked my mum was " would you like to be addressed as a woman?"
My mother was furious at this but also so upset and tired that she burst into tears.
I am so cross. I don't understand why they would ask her this. Would they ask a man similar.

They should have just asked her how she would like to be addressed. She can say Mrs Smith, or Jane will be fine, alternatively she can say it's Steve Smith, or Mx Fluffy Paws as she sees fit.

No one is confused or upset, everyone has a chance to make their preferences known. If the officer is worried about gender when she says "it's Sam Smith" they can say "and is that Mr, Ms or Mx?"

Before it gets lost on the thread @Horseebooks I’m sure you are busy so you might have missed my question?

On same question to @MyOliveHelper - I feel like some common ground is needed here.

As you are GC do you agree with this basic tenet?

I don’t know if we can but I appreciate it. I don’t think your starting position is relevant or meaningful to a discussion about trans people. That’s the problem. That’s the gulf. But let’s give it a go. You obviously can’t change someone’s chromosomes. There are two combinations of sex chromosomes in humans that are much more common than others - XX and XY.

I’m personally of the belief that pretty much everything about how the human race engages with/acts upon those two groups after that is cultural, or so infected by culture as to be effectively so.

Surely the starting position about whether humans can change sex or not (they can't) is the absolute crux of the discussion about trans people?

How on earth can you say it's not relevant or meaningful?

A trans person is someone who wants everyone to pretend they are the opposite sex to the one they actually are. We can't have a meaningful discussion about trans people without acknowledging that fact.

No one can transition from one sex to the other and that's a fact. So let's stop using the term for a start.

Can't we all just agree that men can never be woman, and that's it, end of story, full stop??

Has that view stopped being "literal murder"?

this isn’t my experience at all of what trans people are. It may be that there’s been some kind of official trans statement issued but I assume that like GC, the trans ‘position’ is made up of the individual positions of lots of individuals.

edit sorry. How I can say it is that I don’t think any trans person would choose, if they could, to have their chromosomes change but nothing else about the way they present in the world. The EFFECTS of the chromosomes sure. But that’s gender. It’s GC who brought in the whole biological sex thing

Well it's difficult to define trans people otherwise.

It's an umbrella term which includes people who have had gender dysphoria since very early childhood, people who are same sex attracted with a lot of internalised homophobia, adolescent girls and young women with autism/ADHD/trauma who want to dissociate from their female bodies, middle aged males with autogynephilia, various people who appear to be just doing it for attention, and probably a few more I've forgotten.

The only thing they all have in common is a desire to be referred to as though they were the opposite sex. I don't think it's even accurate to say they want to live as or be treated as a member of the opposite sex, because most trans women don't actually seem to want to be treated the way women are treated.

How would you define a trans person?

Well as you say it’s difficult. In fact I think near impossible to divide humanity neatly into categories on anything.

I don’t know how helpful it is for women who aren’t trans to be defining what trans is - do you think it’s important that we do? If so, why?

i don’t think I can define a trans person any more than I could define any other category of people. And I don’t see a lot of value in doing so. On an individual level, if someone tells me they’re trans or I’m told they’re trans… they’re trans

Ugh, that sucks. I'm sorry.

Well humans can be pretty neatly divided into male and female.

If trans people think it's up to them to define what a woman is then why shouldn't we define what it means to be trans?

I'm a lawyer, we work with definitions all the time. They're essential to make sure everyone understands the same thing in the same way. So yes, we need to have commonly understood definitions of both "woman" and "trans", and this is where the trans lobby come unstuck because they want both these terms to be inclusive to the point of meaninglessness.

Given that both women and trans people have legal rights attaching to their respective statuses, we do need to be able to identify the criteria for inclusion in each group.

There shouldnt be a default to trans.

Because it's irrelevant. It's sex that matters when dealing which this stuff.

If you really want to deal with that, it would be better to ask about your sodding religion, cos that's what this is.

The rest of the world shouldnt be compelled to answer 'what is your gender' when they find it offensive and akin to a religion. We shouldn't all be forced into having a gender.

I do not have a gender. I do not want to answer questions about gender.

It's sexist and it's homophobic.

Find another way without forcing me to have to deal with this time wasting, money pit of gibberish.

I want services to be accessible without having to jump through the hoops of someone else's fantasy.

Ask how someone would like to be addressed and have done with it. It's enough. If they lie or conflate sex with gender then really, honestly, let them get on with it.

It feels like the rest of the world is being held hostage to this - we can't access healthcare if we don't sign up to this nonsense. That's where we've got to and that's really not ok.

Thanks for answering.

That’s great that you agree that a) no one can change sex and b) the only two sexes are male and female. Yay.

However, I would argue that these facts are enormously relevant to a discussion on trans ideology and its effects on society (see OPs mother and the police losing the power of rational thought being trained to disrespect women by trans activists) but I’d be interested to know why you think it’s not.

To bring this back to the thread, do you think OPs mum who has lived and most likely been negatively affected by various situations (not being allowed to get credit or a mortgage in her sole name until the 1970s, not protected from being sacked for getting pregnant for the majority of her life, getting paid less than men, and many other awful situations I posted about earlier) - were these situations related directly to her sex or do you think she should have ‘identified’ as a man and not suffered?

As to your final point: I’m personally of the belief that pretty much everything about how the human race engages with/acts upon those two groups after that is cultural, or so infected by culture as to be effectively so.

Can you expand on this point to explain what you’re getting at? What do you think is the real world effect or manifestation of this?

Well if trans people want any right of their own what so ever they are going to have to suck up definitions.

And unfortunately legally speaking they have to be defined by sex.

Why?

Cos otherwise I could go around claiming discrimination against me because I'm a transwoman and no one could legally question it!

A transwoman knows they are a transwoman because they know their sex. And everyone knows I'm NOT a transwoman because of my sex.

So sex matters here more than gender otherwise we all lose our sex based rights and transrights are derived from sex based rights. Even if they don't want to bloody admit it. Same as homosexual rights are derived from sex based rights and women's rights are the most basic form of sex based rights.

Otherwise we just all become blobs of humans and we can't see any discrimination at all within legal definitions. This doesn't stop the discrimination happening, which is a bit of a pain in the backside, but we can't see it.

We can not define gender legally. "People who wear dresses or wear lipstick" - you can't legislate on that basis!!!

This philosophical wankery and feelings in head just don't translate into law and the functional day to day world.

And we shouldn't try to design the world around it for this reason. Because it doesn't work.

It’s GC who brought in the whole biological sex thing

No, the binary of biological sex has always existed literally since life began on earth. This may be the flaw in your thinking.

While women are amazing and birthed every human being in existence, the invention of biological sex is beyond even us.

Your mother needs to understand that the this had nothing to do with her. They are just following procedures.

They do say some genuinely extraordinary things, don't they?

Again, this is incorrect.

Humanity has already been divided into very near categories - male and female. Some societies attempt to treat both sexes reasonably fairly and some societies treat one sex in particular horrendously. Interestingly, it’s always the same sex that gets treated badly, regardless if the country.

I don’t know how helpful it is for women who aren’t trans to be defining what trans is - do you think it’s important that we do? If so, why?.

You make an interesting point.

How helpful is it for men who aren’t women (and have zero concept of what it is to be female) to be defining what female is so they can include themselves into our category?

On an individual level, if someone tells me they’re trans or I’m told they’re trans… they’re trans. That’s absolutely fine, they can define themselves however they want. What they cannot do is define themselves as women (if they are male or vice versa) in order to force everyone to pretend they are actually women and allow them to avail themselves of women’s services like smear tests (yes, men with a gender identity have demanded smear tests), gynaecological services (see gynaecologicist sued in France for refusing ‘gynae’ treatment to a man) and women’s sports and spaces.

I feel like we’re rushing back to the Dark Ages at breakneck speed.

What is another term for breastfeeding?

Chest feeding.

We used to call the people who perform this function 'women' or 'mothers'.

But in today's dystopian world they are 'chestfeeders'.

It seems strange that twenty years or so ago, none of these ridiculous things had to be asked and no one seemed put out, or put in danger, at all. Since then, society has collectively lost its mind and we have all been gaslit into a state of meek acquiescence so that we hardly notice it.

This may be the flaw in your thinking

It's not a flaw in thinking. It's a lack of thinking.

Everyone knows what a woman is. We've all come out of one.

Anyone arguing differently is just disengenious and trying to make themselves look clever.

The reality is they really aren't.