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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask someone to explain the India / Pakistan situation please?

220 replies

MistressoftheDarkSide · 06/05/2025 23:50

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/may/06/pakistan-india-attacks-kashmir-live-updates

I tend to keep an eye on the news but haven't seen any mainstream reporting recently about tensions between India and Pakistan getting to the point of military conflict.

I'm going to dig around a bit to try and get a better understanding but I know there are knowledgeable types on here who might have some insight, and I think it's worrying and feel very sorry for the inevitable civilian casualties.

Kashmir crisis: Pakistan says it is retaliating to India’s ‘act of war’ – live

Pakistani PM calls India’s missile attack on Pakistan and Pakistan-administered Kashmir ‘cowardly’; defence minister says ‘We are in the process of retaliating’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/may/06/pakistan-india-attacks-kashmir-live-updates

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
JaneFondue · 09/05/2025 14:13

May I add that only 17-20 % of the Muslim population at the time of Partition moved to Pakistan. The rest stayed in India. India has had Muslim presidents, Muslim chief ministers, Muslim head of the space programme, Muslim film stars, Muslim army chiefs. Pakistan has had no Hindu equivalents. So how exactly did India cheat Pakistan out of its rightful share of land and income?

Western useful idiot liberalism has a lot to answer for.

Whattodowiththesewindows · 09/05/2025 14:25

I don't disagree that the West has a lot to answer for ,arrogance and greed are the qualities that come to my mind .

MadeleineAllbright · 09/05/2025 14:30

JaneFondue · 09/05/2025 12:00

I expect there will be many of the media asking why India doesn't give up Kashmir, but no one asking why the UK did not give up Northern Ireland.
Short answer: no one wants terrorists on their borders.

@MadeleineAllbright you have ignored India's economy building efforts after partition. Just being rather dismissive " Oh India got more in the divide". It has hauled itself out of extreme poverty, exports IT and several other services to the world, set up a space programme, slashed its birthrate, educated a large proportion of its women, conducted mostly free and fair elections. It is the fourth largest economy in the world, thanks to incredible effort. This isn't propaganda. It's fact.

Meanwhile Pakistan has given itself over to the army and Islamic terrorism.

But who can tell if all the terrorists living inside Pakistan are sponsored by the state? It's a mystery wrapped in a conundrum wrapped in an enigma.

Edited

I don’t have a horse in this race. I’m not pro-India or pro-Pakistan. I don’t consider either to be allies of Britain who we can trust. But let’s be realistic - India is the fourth largest economy in the world simply because it has the largest population in the world. On GDP/capita, a far more meaningful measure, India sits somewhere in the 120-140 range.

India’s GDP/capita is still less than half Ukraine’s, even though Ukraine has been fighting an all-out war for three years, many of its major cities are in ruins, vast numbers of working age men are fighting (and dying) instead of contributing to the economy and millions of women and children (about a seventh of its peacetime population) have fled the country.

And there is a vast amount of historical scholarship which discusses India’s superior inheritance at the point of partition, and traces the roots of subsequent developments in both India and Pakistan back to that moment. This isn’t a controversial opinion.

It is a fact that India got 77% of the land, 82% of the population and 90% of the industrial base, including the huge TATA steelworks of which Pakistan received no equivalent. And of course, the land Pakistan did get was awkwardly split between East and West Pakistan, separated by thousands of kilometres of Indian territory.

It’s hardly surprising that post-partition, with the tensions over Kashmir added into the mix, Pakistan was left feeling extremely vulnerable - and that consequently in those vital early years, the Pakistani government spent 50% of their national budget on defence (taking money away from nation-building / economic projects and strengthening the army, a factor behind Pakistan’s subsequent military coups). This is also a key part of why the Pakistani government began engaging with militant/terrorist groups in the first place - as a buffer against pro-Indian movements in Afghanistan, because of course, if Afghanistan was to fall under Indian control, Pakistan would be surrounded.

India also had a massive head start on nation-building relative to Pakistan, a contributing factor to the relative success of democracy in India. Gandhi and the Indian National Congress had been establishing and spreading the idea of an Indian nation for decades before Partition. The Muslim League’s campaign for an independent state couldn’t perform an equivalent role for Pakistan because it failed to become the dominant party and disintegrated shortly after independence - due largely to the fact that it had very weak roots in the regions that became Pakistan (many of its politicians were from Uttar Pradesh, which of course stayed in India).

So many of Pakistan’s challenges can be traced back to the circumstances of partition - a vicious circle from which they never escaped. That’s not to say that Pakistani leaders hold none of the blame for Pakistan’s failures - I’m simply acknowledging that they began from a far worse starting point than India.

MadeleineAllbright · 09/05/2025 14:33

JaneFondue · 09/05/2025 14:13

May I add that only 17-20 % of the Muslim population at the time of Partition moved to Pakistan. The rest stayed in India. India has had Muslim presidents, Muslim chief ministers, Muslim head of the space programme, Muslim film stars, Muslim army chiefs. Pakistan has had no Hindu equivalents. So how exactly did India cheat Pakistan out of its rightful share of land and income?

Western useful idiot liberalism has a lot to answer for.

No one is saying India ‘cheated Pakistan out of its rightful share of land.’ We are simply recognising that the geopolitical reality created in 1947, with a far smaller and more unstable Pakistan next to a gigantic and richer India helps explain Pakistan’s intrinsic sense of vulnerability which lies behind many of their subsequent acts.

JaneFondue · 09/05/2025 14:37

India can hardly be blamed for the majority of its Muslim population at Partition sticking with the better option and choosing to remain in India, can it? Thereby ending with 82% of the population.

I love how you categorise both as allies Britain can't trust. One is exporting Islamist terror across the globe, the other Silicon Valley CEOs. But sooo hard to tell the difference.

Anyway, post Brexit, Britain has no choice but to do business with India, as seen by the trade deal.

Mencara · 09/05/2025 14:41

MadeleineAllbright · 09/05/2025 14:30

I don’t have a horse in this race. I’m not pro-India or pro-Pakistan. I don’t consider either to be allies of Britain who we can trust. But let’s be realistic - India is the fourth largest economy in the world simply because it has the largest population in the world. On GDP/capita, a far more meaningful measure, India sits somewhere in the 120-140 range.

India’s GDP/capita is still less than half Ukraine’s, even though Ukraine has been fighting an all-out war for three years, many of its major cities are in ruins, vast numbers of working age men are fighting (and dying) instead of contributing to the economy and millions of women and children (about a seventh of its peacetime population) have fled the country.

And there is a vast amount of historical scholarship which discusses India’s superior inheritance at the point of partition, and traces the roots of subsequent developments in both India and Pakistan back to that moment. This isn’t a controversial opinion.

It is a fact that India got 77% of the land, 82% of the population and 90% of the industrial base, including the huge TATA steelworks of which Pakistan received no equivalent. And of course, the land Pakistan did get was awkwardly split between East and West Pakistan, separated by thousands of kilometres of Indian territory.

It’s hardly surprising that post-partition, with the tensions over Kashmir added into the mix, Pakistan was left feeling extremely vulnerable - and that consequently in those vital early years, the Pakistani government spent 50% of their national budget on defence (taking money away from nation-building / economic projects and strengthening the army, a factor behind Pakistan’s subsequent military coups). This is also a key part of why the Pakistani government began engaging with militant/terrorist groups in the first place - as a buffer against pro-Indian movements in Afghanistan, because of course, if Afghanistan was to fall under Indian control, Pakistan would be surrounded.

India also had a massive head start on nation-building relative to Pakistan, a contributing factor to the relative success of democracy in India. Gandhi and the Indian National Congress had been establishing and spreading the idea of an Indian nation for decades before Partition. The Muslim League’s campaign for an independent state couldn’t perform an equivalent role for Pakistan because it failed to become the dominant party and disintegrated shortly after independence - due largely to the fact that it had very weak roots in the regions that became Pakistan (many of its politicians were from Uttar Pradesh, which of course stayed in India).

So many of Pakistan’s challenges can be traced back to the circumstances of partition - a vicious circle from which they never escaped. That’s not to say that Pakistani leaders hold none of the blame for Pakistan’s failures - I’m simply acknowledging that they began from a far worse starting point than India.

Pakistan’s economic struggles are largely the result of its own choices

Since partition, Pakistan has faced repeated military takeovers, weak democratic institutions, and a lack of consistent long term economic planning. Instead of focusing on development, investments in education, health and industry were often sidelined in favour of short term political or military priorities. While India pursued economic reforms, built a strong IT and industrial base and maintained a functioning democracy, Pakistan remained reliant on foreign aid and remittances.

But carry on sympathising with a state which sponsors terrorists in Afghanistan and India. They could have been building schools but chose to fund and train terrorists who come to the west and commit terrorist attacks.

Un-fucking-believable

JaneFondue · 09/05/2025 14:42

Sorry, I won't accept Pakistan's 'vulnerability'. It's a nuclear power. There are other small countries near India who aren't exporting terror.

All this liberal obfuscation would disappear if Britain were attacked by Islamists, as India has been. And it's coming for us, as MI5's arrest of five Iranian terrorists today shows. This nonsense about teensy, vulnerable nations trapped by geography will go up in smoke

Mencara · 09/05/2025 14:46

JaneFondue · 09/05/2025 14:42

Sorry, I won't accept Pakistan's 'vulnerability'. It's a nuclear power. There are other small countries near India who aren't exporting terror.

All this liberal obfuscation would disappear if Britain were attacked by Islamists, as India has been. And it's coming for us, as MI5's arrest of five Iranian terrorists today shows. This nonsense about teensy, vulnerable nations trapped by geography will go up in smoke

It’s mind blowing and blood boiling. The number of people wanting to justify terrorism. Good God.

EasternStandard · 09/05/2025 14:48

JaneFondue · 09/05/2025 14:42

Sorry, I won't accept Pakistan's 'vulnerability'. It's a nuclear power. There are other small countries near India who aren't exporting terror.

All this liberal obfuscation would disappear if Britain were attacked by Islamists, as India has been. And it's coming for us, as MI5's arrest of five Iranian terrorists today shows. This nonsense about teensy, vulnerable nations trapped by geography will go up in smoke

You make a good point, although we have been in the past and still the same thinking continues.

MadeleineAllbright · 09/05/2025 14:50

JaneFondue · 09/05/2025 14:42

Sorry, I won't accept Pakistan's 'vulnerability'. It's a nuclear power. There are other small countries near India who aren't exporting terror.

All this liberal obfuscation would disappear if Britain were attacked by Islamists, as India has been. And it's coming for us, as MI5's arrest of five Iranian terrorists today shows. This nonsense about teensy, vulnerable nations trapped by geography will go up in smoke

All this liberal obfuscation would disappear if Britain were attacked by Islamists, as India has been

Britain has also been attacked by Islamists on multiple occasions, in case you’d forgotten. And as we saw with the most recent major attack - the Manchester bombing - the primary reaction was ‘Don’t look back in anger’…

MadeleineAllbright · 09/05/2025 14:52

Mencara · 09/05/2025 14:46

It’s mind blowing and blood boiling. The number of people wanting to justify terrorism. Good God.

The nationalistic chauvinism is coming out in full force now! To be clear, trying to understand the historical roots of a phenomenon is not the same thing as justifying it. And nowhere have I questioned India’s right to defend itself.

Mencara · 09/05/2025 14:56

MadeleineAllbright · 09/05/2025 14:52

The nationalistic chauvinism is coming out in full force now! To be clear, trying to understand the historical roots of a phenomenon is not the same thing as justifying it. And nowhere have I questioned India’s right to defend itself.

I’m not a nationalist. I’m not Hindu. I’m not an Indian citizen. I just think the compulsion to explain away terrorism is a hobby for some in the West.

Please carry on with the mental gymnastics.

TinkerTailorSoldier · 09/05/2025 14:56

MadeleineAllbright · 09/05/2025 14:30

I don’t have a horse in this race. I’m not pro-India or pro-Pakistan. I don’t consider either to be allies of Britain who we can trust. But let’s be realistic - India is the fourth largest economy in the world simply because it has the largest population in the world. On GDP/capita, a far more meaningful measure, India sits somewhere in the 120-140 range.

India’s GDP/capita is still less than half Ukraine’s, even though Ukraine has been fighting an all-out war for three years, many of its major cities are in ruins, vast numbers of working age men are fighting (and dying) instead of contributing to the economy and millions of women and children (about a seventh of its peacetime population) have fled the country.

And there is a vast amount of historical scholarship which discusses India’s superior inheritance at the point of partition, and traces the roots of subsequent developments in both India and Pakistan back to that moment. This isn’t a controversial opinion.

It is a fact that India got 77% of the land, 82% of the population and 90% of the industrial base, including the huge TATA steelworks of which Pakistan received no equivalent. And of course, the land Pakistan did get was awkwardly split between East and West Pakistan, separated by thousands of kilometres of Indian territory.

It’s hardly surprising that post-partition, with the tensions over Kashmir added into the mix, Pakistan was left feeling extremely vulnerable - and that consequently in those vital early years, the Pakistani government spent 50% of their national budget on defence (taking money away from nation-building / economic projects and strengthening the army, a factor behind Pakistan’s subsequent military coups). This is also a key part of why the Pakistani government began engaging with militant/terrorist groups in the first place - as a buffer against pro-Indian movements in Afghanistan, because of course, if Afghanistan was to fall under Indian control, Pakistan would be surrounded.

India also had a massive head start on nation-building relative to Pakistan, a contributing factor to the relative success of democracy in India. Gandhi and the Indian National Congress had been establishing and spreading the idea of an Indian nation for decades before Partition. The Muslim League’s campaign for an independent state couldn’t perform an equivalent role for Pakistan because it failed to become the dominant party and disintegrated shortly after independence - due largely to the fact that it had very weak roots in the regions that became Pakistan (many of its politicians were from Uttar Pradesh, which of course stayed in India).

So many of Pakistan’s challenges can be traced back to the circumstances of partition - a vicious circle from which they never escaped. That’s not to say that Pakistani leaders hold none of the blame for Pakistan’s failures - I’m simply acknowledging that they began from a far worse starting point than India.

Lol! "Allies you can't trust"!!!
What has UK done to earn India's trust? UK won't even come out strongly to denounce terrorism!
And what do your allies need to do? Give up on protecting their developing economy to help shore up UK's economy? Seend their troops to places like Iraq to fight your wars? Stop using fossil fuels to further industrial development so that UK can shut the gates to industrial development behind itself (after UK has spent years destroying the world's environment through use of fossil fuels)?No, thank you.
If UK wants allyship with india, ,there needs to be a mutual benefit, and also have respect for the principles india holds to be important.

MadeleineAllbright · 09/05/2025 14:59

Mencara · 09/05/2025 14:56

I’m not a nationalist. I’m not Hindu. I’m not an Indian citizen. I just think the compulsion to explain away terrorism is a hobby for some in the West.

Please carry on with the mental gymnastics.

Do you think exploring the history behind the rise of Nazism is excusing or justifying the Holocaust? Trying to understand why a bad thing happened is not the same as supporting that bad thing. This is an incredibly simple concept and it’s a shame that so many posters on this thread are so blinded by national chauvinism that they can’t see this.

JaneFondue · 09/05/2025 15:13

Explaining all very well but words like ' vulnerable' or " allies we can trust" make things quite clear. Chauvinism= protecting your citizens from terrorism.

EasternStandard · 09/05/2025 15:16

MadeleineAllbright · 09/05/2025 14:59

Do you think exploring the history behind the rise of Nazism is excusing or justifying the Holocaust? Trying to understand why a bad thing happened is not the same as supporting that bad thing. This is an incredibly simple concept and it’s a shame that so many posters on this thread are so blinded by national chauvinism that they can’t see this.

It’s a reasonable debate and both takes are worth posting but this ‘national chauvinism’ response is an odd one.

BeJollyNewt · 09/05/2025 15:20

EasternStandard · 09/05/2025 15:16

It’s a reasonable debate and both takes are worth posting but this ‘national chauvinism’ response is an odd one.

We are debating with people here who blindly believe and chant about Modi as 'Viswa Guru' .
Is he Really ? Isn't it ‘national chauvinism’ ?

MadeleineAllbright · 09/05/2025 15:40

JaneFondue · 09/05/2025 15:13

Explaining all very well but words like ' vulnerable' or " allies we can trust" make things quite clear. Chauvinism= protecting your citizens from terrorism.

And does ‘protecting your citizens’ extend to assassinating citizens of other countries on their own territory, as India did in Canada and attempted to do in the United States in 2023? How is that any different to Russia’s attempted assignation of the Skripals in Salisbury? Do you think those actions mark India out as a state that western countries can trust?

Also, feelings of vulnerability - real or perceived - have been a central driver of human actions, at the individual, familial and national level, for as long as humans and nation-states have existed. It’s a primal thing - when people feel unsafe they will seek to act in a way that makes them feel safer, whether that’s fight or flight. Exploring the impact of those feelings of vulnerability is not ‘taking a side.’

EasternStandard · 09/05/2025 15:44

BeJollyNewt · 09/05/2025 15:20

We are debating with people here who blindly believe and chant about Modi as 'Viswa Guru' .
Is he Really ? Isn't it ‘national chauvinism’ ?

The pp said it was on this thread. I don’t know which posters specifically are being referred to. Is anyone chanting anything?

Mencara · 09/05/2025 15:45

BeJollyNewt · 09/05/2025 15:20

We are debating with people here who blindly believe and chant about Modi as 'Viswa Guru' .
Is he Really ? Isn't it ‘national chauvinism’ ?

An ad hominem attack, how shocking!

Not even true. I’ve never heard the term Viswa Guru before

EasternStandard · 09/05/2025 15:58

Mencara · 09/05/2025 15:45

An ad hominem attack, how shocking!

Not even true. I’ve never heard the term Viswa Guru before

Me either

Mencara · 09/05/2025 16:17

Ok…?

meanwhile in Pakistan they train and fund terrorists

very weak deflection tactic

Rummly · 09/05/2025 16:38

I hesitate to trespass onto a subject so well understood by MadeleineAllbright, and possibly others on the thread…but it’s self-evident bollocks that the UK has any culpability for present day Pakistani policy or conduct.

I certainly agree that the study of history is indispensable. But so is common sense. A country with a population of 250m, two Nobel prize winners (one for physics), nuclear weapons, a big conventional military headed by a hardline Islamist, and that has engaged in decades of terrorism sponsorship, does not need western hand-wringing to explain its erratic and objectionable actions.

BeJollyNewt · 09/05/2025 16:52

Mencara · 09/05/2025 16:17

Ok…?

meanwhile in Pakistan they train and fund terrorists

very weak deflection tactic

MadeleineAllbright explained the facts behind that. sadly current govt and it's allied rss . India also brainwashing innocent hindus, including our families .

They forcing not to buy from muslims , so that they can starve.

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