Page 3 | To ask someone to explain the India / Pakistan situation please?

MistressoftheDarkSide · 2025-05-06T22:50:06+00:00

[[https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/may/06/pakistan-india-attacks-kashmir-live-updates https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/may/06/pakistan-india-attacks-kashmir-live-updates]] I tend to keep an eye on the news but haven't seen any mainstream reporting recently about tensions between India and Pakistan getting to the point of military conflict. I'm going to dig around a bit to try and get a better understanding but I know there are knowledgeable types on here who might have some insight, and I think it's worrying and feel very sorry for the inevitable civilian casualties.

Couldnotthinkofausername · 07/05/2025 11:43

MadeleineAllbright · 07/05/2025 01:02

This is a heavily simplified explanation which I’m sure people with a better understanding than me can improve upon:

Before British rule, there was no unified state/entity on the Indian subcontinent. It was instead home to a large number of small, self-governing states, with populations comprised of both Hindus and Muslims.

Under British rule, these small states (the land that today makes up Pakistan, India and Bangladesh) were unified into ‘British India.’

As British control weakened in the 1930s and 1940s, the Indian independence movement led by Gandhi and the Indian National Congress gathered pace. Many Muslims were concerned about the prospect of independence - because they feared that an independent India, which would have a Hindu majority, would therefore be Hindu-dominated.

Consequently, tensions between Hindus and Muslims increased and an organisation called the Muslim League under Jinnah began advocating for an independent Muslim state.

Britain, heavily weakened by WW2, just wanted a quick exit, and became convinced that partitioning British India into a Muslim state (Pakistan) and a Hindu state (India) was the best way to proceed. The partition was handled incredibly poorly, with millions of Hindus and Muslims finding themselves on the wrong side of haphazardly drawn borders with hours to go before the deadline. There was a lot of bloodshed.

India did far better out of the Partition, receiving the lion’s share of good agricultural land, industry (e.g. major steelworks), financial resources and the state apparatus left behind by the British Raj. For example, India got 77% of the total landmass and 82% of the population of the undivided country, leaving Pakistan feeling dwarfed by comparison and geopolitically insecure - compounded by the Kashmir issue (see next point).

Another key problem was the handling of the state of Kashmir, which was split between India and Pakistan though both felt they should have been allocated the entire territory. It has been a flashpoint of conflict ever since.

Pakistan has been wracked by instability ever since its creation (due in large part to the circumstances of the partition), with repeated military coups. This instability has contributed to the prorogation of terrorist groups which have particularly targeted India. India blames the Pakistani government for all Islamist terrorist attacks on their territory - it’s difficult to say exactly how culpable the Pakistani government actually is (Are they actively funding and training militants or just turning a blind eye? We don’t really know).

A few weeks ago, Islamist terrorists attacked Indian tourists in Kashmir, singling out the non-Muslim men and murdering them. As always, the Indian government has blamed the Pakistani government and clearly feels that the severity of the terrorist attack requires a militsry retaliation.

This is really helpful. Thank you ☺️

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 11:47

PurpleChrayn · 07/05/2025 11:13

Islamist terror. Same as every major issue in the world today.

Terror is with in every religion including hindutva terror ,am hindu but do not agree with hindutva terrorists . It's same for islam and islamic terror. both are different.

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 11:51

TinkerTailorSoldier · 07/05/2025 10:31

It was the British rule that sowed the seeds of divide and conquer. Before that, Hindus and Muslims lived together under Hindu Kings in some places and the Muslim Mughal empire. There were lots of wars,but they were not on religious grounds, but wars to grow their influence

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RSS under british empire was totally against Independence!!! so grow up.

sashh · 07/05/2025 11:54

@TinkerTailorSoldier @Hoppinggreen I know the part Britain played but I didn't think that needed saying in addition to @MadeleineAllbright's summary.

There is an awful lot of history that is not included in the summary because it isn't really necessary to answer a simple question.

Not all of India was under British control, as well as the independent states France and Portugal held land, Goa only became part of India in 1961.

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 11:57

Keirawr · 07/05/2025 06:23

Pakistan, one of the most corrupt countries on Earth. India not far behind. Ruling classes rip off their people, steal funds, aid and generally siphon public funds like there’s mkt tomorrow.

In Pakistan especially, the military classes are the biggest leeches, who in the name of defence like to siphon billions. So both like conflict now and then, so they can whip up the masses, and steal billions in their names and in Pakistan especially, justify the enormous ‘military expenditure’ and the hugely priveleged military class.

The whole thing is basically a total fraud deigned to rip off their poor, uneducated citizens. The west loves it of course, because they get to sell a few weapons and rip off their own citizens (to a lesser extent) in the name of sending aid over.

Thats it in a nutshell.

100%

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 12:00

SpryUmberZebra · 07/05/2025 02:08

You’re right that it seems to be a religious attack and many media reports didn’t cover that fact. the first I heard of it was an interview with an Indian diplomat.

I don’t know how true but he claimed that in addition to asking them to recite the Koran and they were also asked to prove if they were circumcised or not before shooting them.

Edit: Pakistan is now claiming that they have shot down 5 Indian jets and taken soldiers and pilots hostage, sounds suspicious to me. I will wait until it is verified.

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It is not relegious attack, attack against Indian tourists in kashmir. There could be an istance asked for relegian as majority of Indians are hindu. few war magering hindutva Indians want to rely on these comments

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 12:06

SpryUmberZebra · 07/05/2025 02:08

You’re right that it seems to be a religious attack and many media reports didn’t cover that fact. the first I heard of it was an interview with an Indian diplomat.

I don’t know how true but he claimed that in addition to asking them to recite the Koran and they were also asked to prove if they were circumcised or not before shooting them.

Edit: Pakistan is now claiming that they have shot down 5 Indian jets and taken soldiers and pilots hostage, sounds suspicious to me. I will wait until it is verified.

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They attacked Indians and they know majority are hindus. They din't spare kashmiri muslim who tried to stop them . So it is clear that it was not religious attack, but attack against Indian government. Hindutva is against facts and making false propaganda.

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 12:08

Lentilweaver · 07/05/2025 01:03

26 Indian tourists were killed in Kashmir by terrorists who asked them to recite the Koran and when they couldn't, shot them before their wives and children.

Unclear how this can be blamed on the Indian PM, given Pakistan;s long track record of sheltering terrorists, but I am sure people will find a way.

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The same way how Indian PM had to take blame about pulwama earlier , security lapses were intentional.

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 12:11

Lentilweaver · 07/05/2025 01:05

it’s difficult to say exactly how culpable the Pakistani government actually is (Are they actively funding and training militants or just turning a blind eye? We don’t really know).

I mean, the US State Department, Brookings ( an independent institutution), the UK, among others, have all agreed that Pakistan is funding terrorists, but apparently no one knows for sure.🙄

Both Pakistan and India funding to millitants on both sides, like India funded and trained beluchistan millitents etc. It is usual thing. But now Pakistan can not go in that line due to several reasons. India invited the attack so managed security lapses. (I am Indian Hindu)

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 12:15

MadeleineAllbright · 07/05/2025 01:17

As that article notes, Pakistani citizens are the biggest victims of terrorist groups in Pakistan, indicating the complexity of the situation.

My wording above should have been clearer - the Pakistani government does of course fund and support terrorist groups to further their anti-India agenda in Afghanistan. If Afghanistan was to fall to the influence of pro-Indian elements, Pakistan would be near-surrounded by India, their mortal enemy, and paranoia about that existential possibility has led Pakistan to take drastic (and clearly morally wrong) actions over the last few decades.

I meant more that India’s claims that Pakistan directly sponsors terrorist attacks in India, like the one a few weeks ago, are unproven - at least, the Indian government has not provided definitive evidence of this.

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Indian Government instead trying to reap benifits for the next elections as they only survive on India Pakisthan rivalry. I guess Indians are not reacting as much this time like they did earier in pulwama attack . India perform some attacks along the border to satisfy their vote bank.

Madcatdudette · 07/05/2025 14:02

So Britain decided to split the area to incorporate a Hindu majority in India and a Muslim majority in Pakistan.
They decided to let Kashmir choose and they ultimately decided to go with India.
How is India to blame still for something that happened decades ago 🤷‍♀️

TinkerTailorSoldier · 07/05/2025 14:12

sashh · 07/05/2025 11:54

@TinkerTailorSoldier @Hoppinggreen I know the part Britain played but I didn't think that needed saying in addition to @MadeleineAllbright's summary.

There is an awful lot of history that is not included in the summary because it isn't really necessary to answer a simple question.

Not all of India was under British control, as well as the independent states France and Portugal held land, Goa only became part of India in 1961.

That's nice. Let's play down the role Britain played in creating the problem in India/Pakistan because it doesn't suit the white saviour narrative. Less of the gaslighting please.

And nice try with the what-aboutery. French rules Pondicherry and Portugal Goa, apart from a handful of teeny-tiny places, nowhere near the scale of the British. And they certainly had nothing to do with creating Hind-Mudlim discord, northe Kashmir issue nor Partition. They were too busy building their churches and forcibly converting everyone to Christianity

AliasGrace47 · 07/05/2025 14:16

CuttedPearPie · 07/05/2025 11:42

Me too, in fact I scrolled down looking for it specifically 😆

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There were major flaws in the Partition process: see Alex von Tunzelmann's book Indian Summer. For one thing, it didn't help that Mountbatten was biased towards Nehru to some extent, partly bc his wife Edwina was having a big affair w Nehru (Mountbatten felt this was an honour). Passages in their diaries about Partition are still redacted & his biographer Andrew Lownie has had to spend millions getting them partly released.

Cyril Radciffe, who drew the borders, knew v little about that kind of stuff, it's unclear why he was chosen.

But obvs that was 70 years ago. The problems now are overwhelmingly the result of what happened during those 70 years. And ofc there was Hindu-Muslim tension, often severe, before Partition. The reason for Gandhi's assassination, for one.

TinkerTailorSoldier · 07/05/2025 14:17

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 12:06

They attacked Indians and they know majority are hindus. They din't spare kashmiri muslim who tried to stop them . So it is clear that it was not religious attack, but attack against Indian government. Hindutva is against facts and making false propaganda.

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You need a better source for your facts. The families of the terrorists victims are on record for saying that they were asked their religion and allowed to gofree if they could recite Quran verses or prove they were circumcised. There was 1 Muslim local who was killed trying to snatch a un from a terrorist. All other victims were Hindu. 1 Hindu man escaped because he was able to recite the kalima.

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 14:34

TinkerTailorSoldier · 07/05/2025 14:17

You need a better source for your facts. The families of the terrorists victims are on record for saying that they were asked their religion and allowed to gofree if they could recite Quran verses or prove they were circumcised. There was 1 Muslim local who was killed trying to snatch a un from a terrorist. All other victims were Hindu. 1 Hindu man escaped because he was able to recite the kalima.

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Then why one muslim and one christian were also have been killed? yes at one instance they asked religion, They did not want to kill women and children too.

TinkerTailorSoldier · 07/05/2025 14:39

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 14:34

Then why one muslim and one christian were also have been killed? yes at one instance they asked religion, They did not want to kill women and children too.

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Reading comprehension is a good skill to have. The 1 Muslim man was a local ponywallah who tried to snatch a gun from a terrorist. The Christian guy had a Hindu name- lots of Christians in India have Hindu first names

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 14:40

TinkerTailorSoldier · 07/05/2025 14:12

That's nice. Let's play down the role Britain played in creating the problem in India/Pakistan because it doesn't suit the white saviour narrative. Less of the gaslighting please.

And nice try with the what-aboutery. French rules Pondicherry and Portugal Goa, apart from a handful of teeny-tiny places, nowhere near the scale of the British. And they certainly had nothing to do with creating Hind-Mudlim discord, northe Kashmir issue nor Partition. They were too busy building their churches and forcibly converting everyone to Christianity

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Many infact soo many hindus from northern India are converted hindus from islam . lets not worry about people's relegious choices which hindutva is moaning in india . all hindus are not Hindutva and not all hindus in India hate pakistanis.

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 14:45

TinkerTailorSoldier · 07/05/2025 14:39

Reading comprehension is a good skill to have. The 1 Muslim man was a local ponywallah who tried to snatch a gun from a terrorist. The Christian guy had a Hindu name- lots of Christians in India have Hindu first names

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wow, terrorists bothered to ask their names and falsely killed christian? your comprehension is coming from hindutva media which is a propaganda.

terrorists did not kill hindu women ,children. They could have just hurted if a muslim man was trying to take gun. they attacked Indians saying ' you enjoying holiday trips while our kids are suffering' . When a Women asked to kill herself as well ,they said 'Ask Modi'

Btw, can you comprehend the securty lapses coming in hte news and military aware of the possible attacks on tourists before hand?

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 14:50

AliasGrace47 · 07/05/2025 14:16

There were major flaws in the Partition process: see Alex von Tunzelmann's book Indian Summer. For one thing, it didn't help that Mountbatten was biased towards Nehru to some extent, partly bc his wife Edwina was having a big affair w Nehru (Mountbatten felt this was an honour). Passages in their diaries about Partition are still redacted & his biographer Andrew Lownie has had to spend millions getting them partly released.

Cyril Radciffe, who drew the borders, knew v little about that kind of stuff, it's unclear why he was chosen.

But obvs that was 70 years ago. The problems now are overwhelmingly the result of what happened during those 70 years. And ofc there was Hindu-Muslim tension, often severe, before Partition. The reason for Gandhi's assassination, for one.

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Yeah, this is all coming from India's ' whatapp university ' forwards of hindutva which are scary . for the non-indians here , government led 'whatsapp university' cook up so many stories to keep these conflicts continue thus they can be in power for longer.

TinkerTailorSoldier · 07/05/2025 15:08

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 14:50

Yeah, this is all coming from India's ' whatapp university ' forwards of hindutva which are scary . for the non-indians here , government led 'whatsapp university' cook up so many stories to keep these conflicts continue thus they can be in power for longer.

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Awww bless your heart. So naive of you, believing your WhatsApp university based in Pakistan and China.

TinkerTailorSoldier · 07/05/2025 15:10

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 14:50

Yeah, this is all coming from India's ' whatapp university ' forwards of hindutva which are scary . for the non-indians here , government led 'whatsapp university' cook up so many stories to keep these conflicts continue thus they can be in power for longer.

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People like you are what are called "useful idiots" in the anti-Hindu narrative

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 15:10

PM Modi Cuts Saudi Trip Short After Pahalgam Terror Attack , but he did not visit kashmir on his return but went to election campain in another state and gave warnings to pakistan and in english for national media attention.

Just before then Modi cancelled his trip to the place where actual terror attack happened, why there were not one police or army people in that area? every 20 km people get checked through out kashmir, then how terrorists were abole to come that far??

People who run after BJP government whatsapp forwards about british, nehru, pakistan, gandhi blah blah never question their own government . They want whole world should treat Modi as god. They already calling Modi 'Viswa Guru' (Guru of universe) among themselves, IS HE ????

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 15:13

TinkerTailorSoldier · 07/05/2025 15:10

People like you are what are called "useful idiots" in the anti-Hindu narrative

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'Soldier' in name is a "Farse" . They never dare to go near border to fight. innocent soldiers loosing their life for the sake of power and militery on both sides.

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 15:16

Hindu vs Hindutva as shown here, real hindu doesn't like the operation to be named as 'Sindhur'

BeJollyNewt · 07/05/2025 15:17

Here