To ask someone to explain the India / Pakistan situation please?

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/may/06/pakistan-india-attacks-kashmir-live-updates

I tend to keep an eye on the news but haven't seen any mainstream reporting recently about tensions between India and Pakistan getting to the point of military conflict.

I'm going to dig around a bit to try and get a better understanding but I know there are knowledgeable types on here who might have some insight, and I think it's worrying and feel very sorry for the inevitable civilian casualties.

Kashmir had originally wanted to stay as an independent country. However, its in a strategic defensive position geographically, hence, both India and Pakistan leaders were wooing the king. Pakistan upped the ante by trying to capture Kashmir and the King chose to ask india for assistance. India sent soldiers in to defend Kashmir on the condition of Kashmir becoming part of India. In return, Kashmir got special local administrative powers and protection under Article 370 eg non-Kashmiris could not buy land there.
A370 was always meant to be temporary and was abolished recently in order to integrate better.

Kashmir, or more technically Jammu and Kashmir has always had both Hindu and Muslim population- the Jammu side is Hindu majority Kashmir side is Muslim. Pakistan has never accepted that Kashmir didn't want to be part of Pakistan and has constantly supported terrorism there (death by a thousand cuts) and started wars over it. In the 1965 war, they captured some territory, which is currently known as Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PoK). UN brokered a ceasefire which kept that piece of land in dispute to be discussed over a negotiating table, which still hasn't happened as India refuses to negotiate until Pakistan stops random attacks across the LoC (Line of Control). Meanwhile, nobody is talking about the Kashmiri Pundits (the Hindus) who had to flee from POK and seek refuge in rest of India and can't go back to their homes

Pakistan, one of the most corrupt countries on Earth. India not far behind. Ruling classes rip off their people, steal funds, aid and generally siphon public funds like there’s mkt tomorrow.

In Pakistan especially, the military classes are the biggest leeches, who in the name of defence like to siphon billions. So both like conflict now and then, so they can whip up the masses, and steal billions in their names and in Pakistan especially, justify the enormous ‘military expenditure’ and the hugely priveleged military class.

The whole thing is basically a total fraud deigned to rip off their poor, uneducated citizens. The west loves it of course, because they get to sell a few weapons and rip off their own citizens (to a lesser extent) in the name of sending aid over.

Thats it in a nutshell.

I'm not sure what's happening at the moment but the international media turned a blind eye when Imran Khan was deposed as leader of Pakistan on obviously trumped up charges. They also turned a blind eye when he was shot and arrested. He was a great leader. Therefore whatever is going on probably the leaders of Pakistan have at least passive support from the West.

Just to add to @MadeleineAllbright 's excellent summary.

When India was partitioned Pakistan was two areas known as East and West Pakistan with 1000 miles of India in between.

East Pakistan was Bengali speaking but Pakistan imposed Urdu on them, this is one of many things that made East Pakistan declare itself an independent Bangladesh.

Also the violence was on a scale I doubt has been seen before. 10 million refugees were travelling from India to Pakistan and visa versa. Most people travelled by train. Many trains were stopped, the drivers held at gunpoint.

The trains were the type with carriages you accessed from the platform so there was no where to go. People were massacred, they were refugees, many women and children crowded in to the carriages with no escape.

Once the attackers had finished the train was allowed to continue on its journey, they became known as 'blood trains'.

I don't think it is helpful to say which train was the first because it happened across the borders in both ways.

It is estimated over a million people were killed in this way, or in riots or other violence. Thousands of women / girls survived the massacres because they were abducted. After partition both India and Pakistan found abducted women but most refused to return believing their families would no longer accept them.

Meanwhile the British government pretended it was a great time of independence and hand over.

The final irony is that many of those who survived emigrated to the UK. Some of the stories are here https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b090rrl0

@sashh I wondered how long it would be before someone popped up to blame the British, or more specifically, the English , for two countries full of people who hate each other for religious and social reasons fighting each other.

I think people need to remember there was internal pressure for a two nation solution within India at the time.

The brits didn’t come up with this out of thin air.

That border has long been a flashpoint for unrest I remember being in India over 20 years ago and things were kicking off on the border so it was a no go travel area. I would say the locals are used to it.

Have a read about the partition and how it was decided and implemented, of course the British empire has contributed to the cause of the continued unrest in Kashmir. Doesn't mean they are entirely to blame for what is happening now of course not but to deny any blame is uninformed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/opinion/india-pakistan-partition-imperial-britain.html

Thank you for all the interesting posts, I appreciate the input.

I find it interesting that the modern response to terrorist attack seems to be to attack the country where the terrorists reside, claiming precision at terrorist targets but with inevitable collateral damage.

I suppose we just have to see whether the situation can be resolved or whether it rumbles on or escalates. It strikes me that it's a dangerous situation from the point of view that certain super powers like China and the US may feel compelled to get involved.

The Telegraph is leading the doom mongering from a quick glance at the headlines, and we now have three potential flash points across the world with nuclear capability in the mix.

If anything kicks off regarding China and Taiwan, I might just start burrowing in my back garden. It's communal so the neighbours might complain.

I know the world always has conflicts going on and that it's only the advent of 24 hour media that lets us know what is going on, and we probably should just focus on our own lives, but I can't help thinking about all the ordinary people, like you and me that end up caught up in it all.

I think it's the cumulative nature of it all that worries me. And the growing global instability, and the potential economic and diplomatic fall out.

This

excellent summary’s madeline and sashh

Where did I blame the British? Or the English?

I'm not that interested and hope it dies down soon but still hate to hear about another war. India and Pakistan have never got on. A lot to do with Religion I'd say.

It was the British rule that sowed the seeds of divide and conquer. Before that, Hindus and Muslims lived together under Hindu Kings in some places and the Muslim Mughal empire. There were lots of wars,but they were not on religious grounds, but wars to grow their influence

Please see my other comment about Kashmir....Kashmir was not "allocated", nor "split into 2" in Aug1947. Kashmir was an independent kingdom until Oct1947, when the king signed the ascension papers due to the threat of a Pakistani invasion, where Sardar Patel (the Home Minister) agreed to send Indian troops to protect Kashmir if they joined India. Kashmir as a whole joined India. Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir was territory grabbed by Pakistan in the 1965 war. Nehru (then Indian PM) is still criticised for agreeing to a UN ceasefire without forcing Pak to return the stolen land as a key term for the ceasefire).

Just blame the UK for colonisation hundreds of years ago. Some blame Britain for everything years and years later. Just ignore everything else, many do.

or religion and culture differences, men who have to have their own way, and be right.

To be fair it was the British Partition that laid the ground for future confict.
It was done badly and in a hurry with no concern for the people of any of the countries involved.
However, it didn't have to be the way it is now and I don't think Britain has any responsibility for current events.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

This also a brilliant site for explainers

Islamist terror. Same as every major issue in the world today.

People need to be more realistic about terrorism and its drivers.

WWIII incoming.
Good luck to everyone.

This, It was intentional security neglect to some areas to get political advantage by getting country against pakistan . I am Indian

Good summary.

To add, there is also the Chinese influence now with Pakistan embracing the belt and road initiative in Balochistan, and with local terrorists targeting Chinese nationals. China and India are competing to be the regional superpower, with Indian and Chinese troops building up along their border in the Himalayas.

Hence India possibly feeling more insecure due to Pakistani alignment with China.

This has been a really useful thread, thanks.

A bit worrying about the US and China, because it sounds like they’re preparing to fight a proxy war (an actual one, not one that people pretend is US influenced)

It was Hindu king with muslim majority kashmir then. Both countries fighting for kashmir due to natural resources and water now.

Me too, in fact I scrolled down looking for it specifically 😆