To think we say we want both parents to make changes to work patterns after baby but in reality workplaces don't want dad's to actually

[LostShepherdsPie]

It’s 2025 and I would like to think that we expect dad's to be fully hands on, especially on those early years and so if we do see a dad needing flexibility to do drop off etc it would be supported. When I returned from mat leave, I went part-time through a flexible working request so I thought it's only fair my partner is uses flexi-time to do nursery drop-offs and hybrid working to help with the one day when I'm at work and we don't have a nursery space for that day but it’s been met with frosty reactions.

Today, while WFH and juggling care after family support fell through, our 16-month-old briefly appeared on camera. Even after giving a heads-up and apologising, he felt judged.

Funny how women doing the same get asked, “Isn’t your husband around?” as if to say can't they help out? Yet, here my husband is doing just that but he's telling me he's getting strong hints it's frowned upon.
For context he is working in the charity sector / public sector and I thought they were all, 'were fully supportive of flexible work patterns / blah blah ...not quite huh.

Btw He’s doing a great job at work, with glowing feedback so it's not a case that any of this is actually impacting his work.

I think the issue is that women will have to accommodate their careers around their kids which is why you’re less likely to hear it. I left the corporate world for public sector, precisely because I knew they would be more accommodating for my family, whereas my DH has remained in the same corporate role, where the culture mains work first family is for paid staff.

That's a choice you and your DH made though rather than a specific workplace treating people differently. You could have stayed in the corporate sector while he went into the public sector.

My ex claimed they would NEVER accept a flexible working request so he could share childcare and pick ups/drop offs - he just didn't want to ask because he didn't want to do it.

No one should be WFH and looking after a baby, or a child of absolute minimum under 8 - really under 10. It’s just not fair on anyone.

I talk about this all the time for mothers, for parents and for fathers.
I set up and ERG and campaigned in my last organisation to have a parenting erg and to support working parents in the organization with fairness, I trained Managers, I got policies changed, I know this issue from all sides.

The reason I'm discussing working fathers, is because this post is about working fathers.

And there is a real obstacle in many organizations culturally acceptable when working mothers step up, than fathers, more strongly with working mothers and so I'm leaning in to that element of the debate here.
It's all hard, it's all unfair, but I was talking about the issue of working fathers as I don't think it's spoken about enough in comparison and that's what the post called for. If it's fairer for fathers, it'll be fairer for mothers too, and we all want parenting equality which helps families overall.

I would have judged him too and as a manager I’d have told him to log off immediately and use a days annual leave to cover child care and we’d be having a conversation about how you can’t work from home whilst looking after a child. It’s literally in our handbook

Are you seriously suggesting that if we should make it fairer for fathers first so that it becomes more fair for mothers?! That is outrageous.
I don't think whether it is or isn't "culturally acceptable" is the point either. It's whether it has an impact on parents (not just the menz) careers and progression. If it is the same negative impact for both genders why talk specifically on the impact for "modern fathers" rather than parents in general.

Did I say first?
Did I say we should prioritize their struggles over mother's?
I did not.
I'm sorry you're triggered by the debate that is inclusive and more nuanced than us vs them.

You didn't specifically say first but if you are suggesting that it's reasonable to have a thread discussing only fathers struggles rather than parents struggles overall that is what you are implying, particularly when you state "if it's fairer for fathers, it'll be fairer for mothers too, and we all want parenting equality which helps families overall"

It's a bit laughable that you think discussing fathers struggles rather than parents struggles overall is being inclusive.😂

You’re right to say this is about parents, but you keep repeatedly missing what tinyflamingo is saying over and over. She has said several times that it’s about parents, not a “men are more special, victimised and important” view. You seem determined to read the very worst into a very level and well balanced set of posts. At no point has she said men are more important here. She’s said that both are. And she spends a lot of time on this at work too. Don’t have a go at her - she’s not the problem here!

Tinyflamingo has said that fathers are more victimised than mothers in the workplace actually. I disagree.

Not exactly. She said that in many organisations, it’s more culturally acceptable for women to step up for flexible working than for men. I agree. I’ve seen it, and I’ve seen it change in better organisations. But this doesn’t mean that she thinks men are “more victimised” overall. This is one point where it’s harder for it to be acceptable for men to get flexible working. There are loads more things to consider than this - organisations that allow women to be flexible but not men, might well discriminate more against women as they may treat them as flaky. They may make assumptions about what careers women would be “suitable” for. Presumably she knows this because “I talk about this all the time for mothers, for parents and for fathers.
I set up and ERG and campaigned in my last organisation to have a parenting erg and to support working parents in the organization with fairness, I trained Managers, I got policies changed, I know this issue from all sides.”

The thread is about fathers and flexible working (though actually it’s about a family who have totally misunderstood “flexible working” and have decided that working from home while looking after a baby is a reasonable plan). So that’s what people are commenting on. Engaging with this aspect of the discussion doesn’t mean that people think it’s the most important thing around, or that overall fathers are the most victimised.

She said that "They grudgingly give mums Flexi time but when a dads ask, there is judgement, attitude, push back, resentment and creating a culture to stop those who want it asking" .

I disagree that employers themselves are generally more resentful towards men than they are to women asking for flexi time, and as far as career progression is concerned they certainly don't penalise men more than women which is the main thing. Men are just noticing what women have always had to put up with. I also think many lie about whether they can get flexitime so their partners pick up the slack.

Kids shouldn’t be present during meetings.

But...if fathers are able to easily take flexible working patterns for childcare or days to cover sick children or so on, it does become fairer for mothers.

My DH is able to do this, and that means it doesn't all land on me, meaning I am able to progress my career as much as DH can, if we want to.

My friends DH says that his company (allegedly) wouldn't say yes if he asked, despite the fact t there's women on reduced hours / flexible working patterns.

If it was more normal for fathers to do this, it wouldn't be as frowned upon, meaning more would feel it was acceptable to do it. Which would mean less falls automatically to the mothers, making it fairer.

I am sceptical that your friend's DH hasn't asked because he knows they will say no to him despite the fact women in his workplace are on reduced hours / flexible working patterns. More likely he just doesn't want to ask because he doesn't want to do his share. I agree it should become the norm for men to ask but whether or not men aren't asking because it's "frowned upon" or just because they want someone else to pick up the slack is debatable.

That's the point though. Men think it's not the done thing for them to ask for this. Which means when one does people give them "funny looks* so then less want to.

It's a vicious cycle.

And knowing that guy, I am 100% sure he just doesn't want to do his share. But it does risk his wife's income every time he thinks he shouldn't or can't take a day when one of their kids is unwell. It risks her ability to financially contribute and it risks her ability to provide for herself & her children should she needs to.

If it was the norm, he'd either ask or people would realise he was a crappy partner and father. And because he's very image conscious, he'd definitely ask so people didn't realise he was crap.

I don't see how it being the norm to ask would solve the problem if he doesn't want to do his share. If he's happy to lie he could just tell his wife that he had asked and his employer had said no.

But his boss would know he hadn't asked and therefore would know that he was BSing when he made out what a great family guy he is.

He, and many other men, don't care whether their wives think, but they do care how they appear externally. Particularly to other men. So if the majority of other men were asking and pulling their weight but they weren't, how would that make them look?

Why would his boss know what he is telling his wife and their friends? Why would the majority of men be asking anyway? Most either don't have children or they have older children who don't require childcare.

Ok, I'll rephrase. If the majority of fathers with children requiring care were asking.....you can finish the rest.

And it wouldn't matter whether his boss knew what he was saying. If someone said "oh yeah my family are everything, I do whatever I can to be there for them* but you knew they hadn't made a request most parents did AND they regularly worked later than needed, and so on, you'd know they were talking rubbish.

Are you willing to try and understand how if more fathers made the request, it would lead to less mothers needing to sacrifice as much as they do, and more workplaces would see it as the norm?

Or is there no point because you just like being deliberately obtuse?

This thread was probably written by a poorly educated journalist looking to get a few bites.
We will see a report in a red top soon.

Other option the OP is a poorly educated CF that is going to ruin WFH for everyone.

Why would the fact that he hadn't requested flexible work hours mean he was lying about family meaning everything to him. There could be all sorts of reasons for not needing that. Don't be ridiculous.

And of course I understand that if more fathers made the request less mothers would need to but that is the fault of the men that don't do it.

It's the fault of society and the expectations. It's the fault of companies for not promoting the idea to men. Mine does. And many take them up on it.

It's the fault of men not requesting it and it's the fault of everyone for thinking it's weird when they do. It's also the fault of women for automatically defaulting to being the ones making the career sacrifices.

Do you know how often my DH gets complimented by women, simply because he does the nursery pick up? No one tells me what a great mum I am when I drop them off before work. Or when I do pick up because he's stuck in traffic.

Or how often, when he says he's leaving early to collect DD or attend something, men AND women ask him why I'm not doing it? Even if we're actually both attending.

It's not just the men. It's an entire societal shift that's needed.

I think blaming women or society for the men that don't do their share of childcare is similar to blaming women or society for men who aren't doing their share of their housework. As demonstrated by the fact that your DH pulls his weight there's nothing stopping other men from doing so if they want to. They don't because it suits them not to.