Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

[loveyouradvice]

Embracing the full breadth of what it means to be a man

Any remaining men with a problem with men dressing differently will have to get over it.

Absolutely the topic of this thread and if the men referenced in OP are serious about pushing to ensure transwomen are safe in men’s spaces I applaud them.

So is this changing village open to all? How does it work?

Yes open to all, a lot of leisure centres already have them and I know the two secondary schools in my area have toilets like this, along with the toilets in my workplace. It’s a good idea I think, somewhere safe and open plan for all sexes and a lot safer if you are a single dad with a girl or a single mum with a boy.

Personally, I’m all for that.

But I’m lost. Isn’t that point that women don’t want to share spaces with men, which they would have to if this was in place?

I can’t speak for everyone but nobody I know whose children go to school with mind and use the local swimming pool have a problem with it.. There’s a locked door between every person.

Changing villages are not a safe alternative for women and girls.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14558409/amp/increase-voyeurs-indecent-images-female-swimming.html

my local pool has male, female and then family changing room which has large family cubicles which would solve the problem of fathers taking daughters swimming.

No, I wouldn’t have an issue with it either.

I think though that some might say it’s not sex segregated ‘enough.’

Yep I’m not suggesting it completely solves this issue. The changing room/toilet open plan village at my workplace and children’s school have built each cubicle floor to ceiling (my workplace also has a larger space for disabled people and a chair/sink for mums who would like to breastfeed in private. It’s been pointed out to me that not having a gap could be dangerous in the event that emergency services had to enter for any reason. I can’t remember if my local swimming pool has floor to ceiling. Also just to say I am in full support of women having a space for themselves and a changing village to me has been enough for me to feel comfortable using it with my son. I think (and I’m picking a local news story in my area) that letting trans women join a therapy group for bio females to talk about being raped is beyond entitled and wrong.
I just don’t think denying the fears of trans women and saying.. tough shit go into the men’s bathroom is right either.

I don't recall any other layout. Every pool I've been to since the kids were born has been unisex changing rooms, but with segregated toilets. (...and I've been to a lot.)

Why are transwomen safer in a men's space as opposed to a trans-only space?

The interim guidance just dropped:

In workplaces and services that are open to the public:

-trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women’s facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men’s facilities, as this will mean that they are no longer single-sex facilities and must be open to all users of the opposite sex.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment

So TW fear the men’s room but not the women’s toilets? Hmmm, could that be because TW (males) do not need to fear women because 9 out of 10 of them could take a woman any day of the week? They don’t fear women (and they know many women fear them in private spaces). Really, they are just entitled men who want to usurp womanhood for their own misogynistic ends. To these men, no matter how inviting non trans men are in toilets or locker rooms, that will not satisfy them because they want IN women’s spaces, and nothing less will satisfy them. Period. Unfortunately I don’t see them giving up on this anytime soon, but we need to stay the course.

There are posts here that see the worst in trans women, that depict them as motivated by bad intentions and a desire to dominate women's spaces. In truth, trans women - especially those that sense they don't pass - are anxious when they use women's toilets, and fearful of being shouted at ('It's a man!') and being publicly humiliated, or worse. They use the toilets as swiftly as possible and with the intention of getting out of there quickly. They will not use men's toilets because that would be both humiliating to them and potentially dangerous, while using gender-neutral spaces will depend on the particular trans woman. But whether you're comfortable with trans women using women's toilets, I think you should stop projecting such negative motivations about trans women; they're human beings trying to live their lives, many have back stories that include familial rejection and social stigma.

'Transwomen' are not a monolith. Making sweeping statements like this about their motivations is silly.

However, in asking women to welcome 'transwomen' into their spaces, you are asking them to accept all. The good, the bad, the in-between. There is no 'righteous trans' filter.

So women say no, as is their right.

If men feel unsafe or don't want to share men's facilities with other men, that's not women's problem to solve.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts to my post. My reply is, I don't think you can categorize trans women according to 'the good, the bad, the in-between' when it comes to using facilities like toilets. Trans women's behaviour in these spaces is overwhelmingly harmless (at least according to my research, I can only find a few examples of 'bad' behaviour), I would say in the range of 99% harmless. So if we're judging trans women on actions or behaviours in public toilets, there isn't a reason to object.

Firstly, safeguarding DOES work like this. There are good men, bad men and in between men. We keep them all out, because there is no 'righteous man' filter.

And transwomen are men, so exactly the same rules apply. Why would they get any different treatment to other men?

Trans women's behaviour in these spaces is overwhelmingly harmless (at least according to my research, I can only find a few examples of 'bad' behaviour

So even you are admitting there are examples of bad behaviour. Why would women welcome this bad behaviour into their spaces? For what reason?

How many women need to be hurt, intimidated, scared because of this 'bad behaviour' before you think they have a right to push back? Give us your number ...

They are rejected on the basis of being men. I don’t want nice men in such spaces either and they have to stay out, rightfully. The nice men in my life would never hurt anyone, yet they shouldn’t go into such spaces even if they started dressing in ways that stereotypically women present in, as their presence may make some women feel uncomfortable, and I don’t get to give away that consent.

Not sure why you think TW are the exception just because they have different inner feelings. They see men.

Aside, any of the men in my life whom I’ve asked said they wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if they saw a TW in their loos and I’ve yet to read of a toilet attack occurring on the basis of the victim being trans. Happy to be corrected.

Yeah, I think you make a fair point about how men would react to trans women in men's toilets. Maybe it's overblown. When I saw the sign 'This male space welcomes trans women,' it did make me think how I would respond if I was looking for a public toilet. Maybe some trans women would respond by using that space. I guess if there's a campaign, we'll find out.

There's obviously a fundamental disagreement between us on trans women, where you just see them as men, but trans women generally live their lives and get treated as women on a day to day basis, and a lot of women see them as women. You can either accept that as making trans women a 'sub category' of women or you can't, but either way I don't think it's going to make trans women disappear or stop living their lives as women.

The thing is (and its been said before) if there were any basis in fact for trans women to be scared in the men's toilets it would not only be recorded, but given the current fad of recording every issue that trans women have ever faced it would be on various video sites all over the internet.

And lets also be honest here and state that if you wanted to stage men being violent against transwomen all you would have to do would be to film them pissing.

But they're not a sub category of women.

There is no objective or scientific criteria that makes them so. They are a category of men. Basic facts.

And no, i don't agree that people genuinely do see them as women (what does that really mean?) Or that 'living their lives as women' is a meaningful concept (how is living your life as a woman different to living your life as a man?)

I'm all for people presenting, dressing as they please, but acceptance of transpeople should not require compromising science, reason and women's rights.

How are TW living their lives as women - is this about hair, make-up and frocks or is it about invading women's spaces? I don't get it - how I live my life is no different to how dh lives his.

You don’t see them as women, or else they would just be ‘women’ and not transwomen and you wouldn’t be here having this conversation. If they weren’t men they wouldn’t be transwomen, it’s literally the only prerequisite to be one.

I know ‘trans women exist’ is a favourite line of TRA’s. No one has said they don’t or can’t exist. The majority of women just don’t want men in certain spaces and sports, the nice ones, the bad ones, the trans identifying ones.

Living their lives as women can also never be properly explained other than relying on regressive stereotypes. How does one live as a woman?

No, they’re not “legitimately afraid”. They may loudly claim they are, and many of them just as loudly claim that women should be afraid because all our husbands and partners are suddenly going to be overcome with lust for them in the men’s toilets and they’ll all be shagging them there.
It is beyond deluded for them to think that men, en masse, are suddenly going to become homosexual at the mere sight of them in the men’s toilets. What they’re actually feeling is shame and embarrassment. Because deep down they know that other men know trans women are men as much as they are.

I'm not going to comment on whether men are legitimately afraid of other men in men's toilets. Maybe they are/maybe they aren't, I agree with it being properly studied and addressed.

What is totally unacceptable is gaslighting and emotionally blackmailing women into accepting these men into their spaces, making themselves less safe, to solve that problem.

The casual disregard for women here is simply disgusting

I mean socially, if people respond to trans women as women, then that's a huge aspect of being a woman. People don't have the capacity to see chromosomes or whether a person has a uterus, they judge people on appearances and a cluster of significations like secondary sex characteristics. If you've medically transitioned as a trans woman (including HRT, surgery), then you'll share these characteristics with other women (including biological characteristics like hormones and sex characteristics like breasts, vulva, softness of skin, body hair growth), and this is what society will see, and will treat you accordingly. You talk about scientific criteria, but these are significant scientific/biological changes. I'm sure you wouldn't go on HRT with hormones of the opposite sex, as this would change things about you in strikingly dysphoric ways for you.

Some trans women are cis-passing, especially those that transitioned early, and people won't even realise they're speaking to a trans woman. Others who transition later in life may not be cis-passing, and people will tell pretty quickly that you're trans. But 99% of people in my experience treat trans women with courtesy and respect according to the gender they're presenting, and let them live their lives, understanding the upheaval they've gone through, and if they're literally not posing any harm, then to let them be.

If trans women were men, then they wouldn't have transitioned into another type of being/existing. The deep discomfort with being a man forced them into a transition that allows them to live their lives within a society that seems generally able to accommodate that, and which fits that trans person much better than the way they were before. It's not just about clothing (you say 'I'm all for people presenting, dressing as they please' - I agree), it's about bodily changes and social changes, it's a cluster of significant changes that make you become something different to before, socially and biologically.