Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

[loveyouradvice]

Embracing the full breadth of what it means to be a man

I think we could all just exercise some common sense.

You mentioned a hypothetical 25 year old with the cognitive ability of a 5 year old - if you’re telling me that you’d feel threatened by them being in your space and would genuinely tell their parent/carer to remove them, that says more about you than it does the person who took them in there.

I’m working on the basis you know how difficult being a SEN parent is - I am disappointed that other women and mothers would seemingly make that harder for someone just trying to meet the needs of their child.

And again what about the girls in their own space? A 12 year old girl should not be expected to change in front of a 25 year old man. It is up to that man and /or his carers (depending on if we're talking about disability or trans) to find accommodations that work for his needs. It is not the job of women and girls going about their lives, to accommodate the needs of males in those women and girls' own spaces.

I'm disappointed that you, as a parent 'would seemingly make that harder for someone just trying to meet the needs of their female child'.

Yes, and to achieve that the whole of society had to start accepting gay men before any difference was made in terms if safety (and it wasn't achieved by the end of the 70s, that's for sure). In the meantime many men were beaten and murdered, there were even gangs who would go out 'gay bashing' into the 80s. Toilets are a great place to get someone cornered, wait for your target to use the loo, then follow them in.

Sadly, there was no safe space for gay men to use back then.

I don't think a 15yo with LD passes the common sense test.

8 years and three months at the end of the session when everyone's either gone or dressed and drying their hair? I doubt many people would be dialling 999.

But what does that have to do with trans-women using the male spaces they are supposed to be using? Why is Brianna Ghey not being used as an example then?

All of this violence is caused by men. It is men that will need to be held to account for that. It is not for women to move over to make space for trans-woman, weak or underdeveloped men or any other men that do not feel safe in men's spaces. We don't want them there and there's no reason for them to be there.

The absolutely ridiculous posturing that has taken place since the decision of the SC is a sight to behold. How embarrassing for men that they are investing so much time and effort in whining about the rights they believe they have lost. They have lost none, those rights were not theirs, they are women's.

Why are men not taking account of violence caused by and to their own sex (we're not even asking you to consider women) and do something about it? You have the will and the heft, get on with it. Or don't. Stop making women responsible for men's safety, we have enough of our own concerns to busy ourselves with.

That's fine you carry on thinking, and teach your son to think, that what works for him is more important than what works for his female peers even in their own single sex spaces. The world will keep turning much as it currently does.

I would tell you to leave and would make a complaint.

It is up to you to source suitable facilities and if you want to use pools/gyms then that's what you do.

I'm surprised that it even needs saying but it clearly does. Men do not belong in women's spaces. That includes children over 8 years old.

Let’s not pretend that being female is the same as having complex special needs, please.

Perhaps 25 is too far, I personally wouldn’t have an issue with a disabled grown man being changed in the same room as me, because I’d recognise the level of need. I can understand why it would be unnerving perhaps, but I’d just see it as someone with complex needs getting dressed.

We can’t currently leave him unattended, at all. If we were out in the community and I needed the loo, I’d have to take him in or wait.

You’re not just going excluding males, you’re excluding their mothers on those occasions too.

My assumption was that people would look at someone with clearly significant need, and have some compassion. It turns out they maybe wouldn’t.

If you don’t expect understanding for your son’s needs from the general public, that’s a shame but your prerogative.

I have absolutely nothing productive to say to that.

You carry on living as someone who would make a complaint about an autistic 9 year old.

I expect better, I’m happy to be better, and not being that person is a hill I’m happy to die on.

No, being female and being disabled is not the same, who said it was? If the 12 year old girl was in the disabled changing room, I fully expect her to get out, it's not hers. And vice versa. You cannot expect young developing girls to put your sons needs above their own, in their own space.

Why don't you take him in the men's changing room, and expect them to give you the compassion?

Because you think female people should give way.

Edited cos posted too soon

8 years old is the maximum age. Older than that and I would tell you to take him out. You'd be warned once and then banned. No skin off my nose.

Or, you could think about your child, what their needs are - then ally your child's needs with the needs and rights of women and girls and see how that fits. Where it doesn't fit you will need to find another solution; one that doesn't involve your older than 8 years old child being in the women's changing room.

What the SC ruling has unwittingly done is raise the profile of the abuse of women's safe spaces and now this is under scrutiny - and not before time.

What on Earth gives you that idea?

Of course men feel (and are) threatened by other men, and many toilets do not feel safe.

It's worth considering that standing at a urinal places one in a very vulnerable position, and is a no-no from a self-defence perspective.

I would be making the complaint about you and your flagrant disregard for women's safe space. I expect better from you and all women, to keep women's safe spaces for women.

If you can't be bothered to find a solution that doesn't override the rules then don't be surprised to be the recipient of complaints.

Just read my first comment on this thread.

All I said is it would be great if men could actually do this seriously - and make their spaces safe for trans women.
That’s it. That’s all.

Someone is “abusing your safe space” by bringing an 8 year old with complex needs into it?

Explain what relevance that has to anything I've written?

Great. It's their responsibility to do that, not women's. We are in agreement then.

Yes. Why don't you go and get changed with him in the men's? PP says they've got more common sense and are more accomodating anyway.

That is so easily fixed by you, his parent, making the appropriate concessions by using facilities that your child can use, without using women's spaces.

If you don't care enough to do that, why should I?

It’s not about compassion, it’s about awareness.

If I took myself into a man’s changing room, I am cognitively aware enough to be perceived as a threat in some way. Not that I would, but I could be assumed to be looking at their bodies, or behaving inappropriately.

His lack of awareness mean that in your space, he’d be doing nothing of the sort and you couldn’t reasonably assume he was. He presents absolutely no threat to you, and wouldn’t even acknowledge you were alive nevermind a woman.

Thats where the difference is for me.

Except it’s not.

I absolutely would not stop taking him to a place he likes, because it only had single sex spaces.

You can be annoyed and complain about that, but if he wants to go swimming - he will be.

You’re not unsafe because a severely disabled person is in your space, and if you think you are - that’s a you problem.

Again, you're seeing this with an adult woman's perspective. Adolescent girls don't see it that way. Adolescent girls deserve privacy and dignity in their own spaces, away from all males.

So why is male vulnerability important to women on threads about single sex spaces?

You don't get to decide that your son's needs override those of his female peers in their own space.