Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

[loveyouradvice]

Embracing the full breadth of what it means to be a man

You did 😂
You literally shoehorned in the safety concerns of small, weak men in a nonsensical attempt to show why men’s loos are dangerous places, and now apparently don’t remember doing it.
Do you have an alter ego?

This is why, if the first few posts were genuine I would wholeheartedly support this. A movement by men to ensure their spaces are safer, more welcoming and more inclusive.

Sigh.

I didn’t Anna. You are getting confused with how the quote and response facility works again.

So women should be sensitive to men's feelings about having a woman in a male changing room, but you don't have to be sensitive to girls views about having a boy in the women's changing rooms?

Why do you think would happen if you took him into the mens changing rooms? Do you not want to be in a space with men changing, or do you think they wouldn't want you there?

Yeah, you'd teach your girls to budge up in their own spaces and make room for the male who shouldn't be there. To think about that males needs/ want to go to the pool with the cool slides, over their own needs or wishes.

How do you think this nonsense got so far for so long? Partly, by entitled men using female socialisation to #bekind, make room for the vulnerable male, put your needs below his because he'll be sad if you don't. They used it against us, there are examples on the thread, people saying that transwomen will be at terrible risk in men's spaces, like that's women's problem to solve. It's not. There were signs put up in university toilets saying 'don't question the man in the women's toilets he knows better than you where he should go' (I paraphrase, but not much). They only worked because girls are trained to put their needs behind others.

Female people are actual full humans and don't exist to make male humans' lives easier or less sad. That's the job of the male humans themselves, or their carers if they are unable to do it themselves. But they can work out how to do that without taking from women and girls thanks.

Why shouldn't the female carer take a disabled boy into the male changing room, is it not better for the boys dignity?

I doubt many men would have a problem with that. I suspect she wouldn't want to, which is why it's wrong to frame "some 8yos tolerated in ladies' changing rooms" as a benefit to the male child. It's more a benefit to the female parent.

But at the point we've probably gone a hypothetical too far because the reverse doesn't work at all. The same women who would likely occasionally tolerate an 8yo lad in their changing room would quite rightly strongly object to an 8yo girl with her father.

I think some people in the thread have forgotten that the rules are clear. Once some one is past 7 they can't use the opposite changing rooms. What we're discussing is not changing the rules but whether in reality the enforcement gives a bit of leeway at the edges.

I think it does. I think if someone said to a parent "I'm sorry I don't feel comfortable with your 7.5yo child here." then the parent would likely respond "Ok, regardless of the rules, we'll leave it 10 minutes while you finish up". Equally if someone said "Is it OK if my 8.5yo changes in here." they might well get the response "OK, regardless of the rules I'm willing to tolerate that.".

That's not changing the rules, that's just people being decent and helping each other out.

Someone else made a really good point: It's not exactly a treat for the 8yo! My lad would be mortified if he had to change with Mum with the ladies. I'm sure 8yo girls would hate to change with men. It's very much a last resort for all concerned.

The reason I even mentioned slides, is that he deserves access to the same fun activities as non-disabled children, and that doesn’t change if that facility doesn’t have a special room for him to get dressed in.

Unless you think disabled children don’t have the right to the same play as non-disabled children?

I’m not suggesting that you should make the world more accessible for us, or that you should solve the problems trans women may face in male spaces. But the two issues definitely co-exist.

Yep my nephew is HORRIFIED at having to go in the ladies changing room with his mom.

But he is 4 so she makes him suck it up. Luckily he is with my brother for 90% of his activities so it is just the 10% that is the issue (for my nephew!)

Isn’t that just the same issue in reverse though?

Spare the women and girls to make the boys and men feel uncomfortable.

Without unisex spaces there is no win in this situation.

I think it’s both.

I’m aware of which changing room I should be in, and it’s not with males. They also may not want me there while they’re naked, for the same reasons (privacy and dignity) that we talk about for women. The physical threat isn’t there, but who’s to say men want me infringing their privacy.

My stepson isn’t aware enough to be affecting your privacy or dignity. He’s not looking, you wouldn’t reasonably assume he was, therefore it makes more sense to me that he is “where he doesn’t belong,” because there can’t be a question of intent or behaviour.

IMO, where trans women go to the toilet, try on clothes, etc is a men’s problem, not a women’s problem. I don’t know why pp are posting about it on a forum, primarily for women?

No, those two scenarios are not the same.

Women as a class are more vulnerable. Remember that a transwoman is just another man.

Transwomen in our (I'm a man) bathrooms will simply be there because of the law. No other motive. Whereas men who go into the women's (and remember they won't even all be trans) have some special emotional, sexual or psychological need to do so. We've even seen cases of men raging that a women chose to leave rather then let him watch her undress.

If a transwoman had some 'special' need to be in the bathroom with me he could simply not dress as a transwoman and I wouldn't be able to tell him apart from the other men.

So I'm not in the least bit threatened by a man who wears a dress being there. Any more than a Scotsman in a kilt would worry me.

Most men will not even look. We don't normally engage with others unless we are with someone and men don't really do the "let's go to the toilet together" thing.

There may well be some areas where the locals pose a risk to vulnerable people in toilets, but those are places I'd avoid too.

In any case now it's illegal for transwomen to be in the women's spaces that is their concern and not something women have to solve.

Any remaining men with a problem with men dressing differently will have to get over it.

You have raised ‘intersectionality’ and vulnerable males.

Do you agree women should have single sex spaces?

If so why the concern over what the male sex class does?

Can you say why?

I doubt you'll get much support from transwomen for individual toilets because the whole point is to be where the women are. Transwomen were ok with unisex (not worried about men in there) because the women had to be in there too.

As for individual changing cubicles there's nothing to stop a man standing in the common area naked or leaving the door open and that is what some do. I doubt those cubicles have doors sealed at top and bottom so you'd have men (not just trans) holding their phone under the door.

With the toilets there's the problem - described by others - that women often need privacy from men while using the washbasin etc so they will be large, expensive and few buildings will have the space.

We already have a solution and I believe the danger is for the most part invented as an excuse.

I've been told many times that transwomen are attacked and killed daily but the only one anyone can remember it was not even really about being trans.

Blimey.

I don’t think Anna is the one who hasn’t a clue 😬

Well it was worth a try, but that's not going to impress anyone.

Not doing what a transwoman demands doesn't equal hate though many have tried that tactic.

You might want to think about conflating gay people and trans people too. They are completely unrelated despite everything Stonewall et al could do and a lot of gay people find being used as human shields offensive.

True, transwoman will be safer in the men's space where there will be a mix of men around rather than in a trans only space.

Come to think of it they were nothing stopping men following transwomen into the women's toilets to attack them and yet...

I told my husband similar; male violence is for males to sort out, not for women to be forced to accommodate. He said “it’s everyone’s problem to solve” and I’m genuinely so disgusted by him that I can’t even look at him

So sorry.

I don't really object to a third space though it would be expensive and almost impossible to find space for it. Especially as it would lie empty most of the time. I bet you won't get many transwomen in it.

Would the third space be safe anyway? If lots of men are lining up to attack transwomen will they not follow them in there?

It fine to be cross with him, but I'm sure he didn't mean to offend you so much. This thread (and the whole debate in general) is very heated right now and maybe you need to take a time out for a bit - for your own sanity/mh. It's really not worth falling out over or getting this upset. I do mean this genuinely, I'm not trying to patronise or belittle you x

I think something like this, a changing room village, open plan.
I know this is really extreme but when my son was a baby there was a story local to me about a poor boy who had been sexually assaulted in a McDonald’s toilet that he’d been sent in alone. A third space should have been made a legal requirement for safety purposes in premises like swimming pools and places with toilet facilities years ago.

Forgot to add the image, something like this.

Ok.

Why are you derailing from the topic of those thread?

And what concern? What are you talking about?