To find DS4 so bloody annoying

[hoppingandhop]

I feel rotten as he’s only a little kid but he’s such hard work. Here are some examples which I’m not looking for advice on per se, its more to give an idea what life with him is like.

• licking people. He’s started trying to lick my face and his sisters face. We hate it. Tell him to stop and laughs and tries to do it more. Move him away he moves back.
• whines for things all the time, toys, ice cream,
• has taken to shouting. Not saying anything or for any reason like fear or pain just suddenly lets loose with a massive bellow AHHHH. Then stops.

there’s a lot more. He also often doesn’t listen to anything we/I say. Some more examples are

• Pelting off when we were at a park and ignoring me shouting to come back. I ran after him and couldn’t find him for ages. Eventually find him by a pond.
• on holiday we were going down a steep flight of steps with no guard on one side. The wall was on the other. I was holding a baby so couldn’t supervise (he suddenly took off) people above were screaming at me to get him to come back and I’m yelling come back DS but he just … blanks me. It’s like no one’s spoken. This happens a LOT but these were two very dangerous occasions.

its a horrible thing to admit but I just wish I didn’t have him. I hate spending time with him as he’s either annoying, completely not listening (blanking me) or being downright nasty to me and sometimes he is.

I like being a parent to my other child but not him and keep wondering wtf is wrong with me. I’m sure a lot of stuff is him trying to make a connection but when you try more positive ways it doesn’t work.

There are mothers all over the world getting their nervous systems fried every day, especially with two little children. Then often told its their fault. One big driver is that we aren't biologically wired to parent in nuclear families. Mother has to take one for the team.

Not sure if that is helpful op. It helps me. I've had it tough as a single mother to two neuro diverse boys (diagnosed late as not totally obvious). Being annoyed and irritated isn't because you are bad or or unloving - it's an automatic reaction from our survival mechanisms.

I could never understand how a human being is supposed to absorb the too-muchness of it all without cracking or going insane. It would be unlawful in a place of work.

I'm not expecting things to change, so I've put on my stoic hat and try to rise above it. I suppose it's a kind of acceptence.

Hi OP. I just wanted to come on and give you a big hug, tell you that it can be fucking shit sometimes being a parent, it's hard, and sometimes no matter what you do or try, it doesn't go right and it's not your fault.
We can try and do absolutely everything possible to be the best parent possible and our kids can still be dicks. Especially at that age.
I have a DD5 that I struggled similarly with when younger. She was the golden child at nursery, and is at school too, and can be so well behaved. But she struggles to listen, gets easily distracted and this leads to the not listening, getting told off, and I really believe this affects her a lot. So then there comes the emotions - shouting, screaming, she really struggles to regulate herself. Only at home though or with me, never at school.
I just wondered if you considered ADHD in your child? Does he struggle with transitions? My DD is going to be assessed. He sounds similar with some things. I bet he thrives from the routine at nursery and that's possibly why he's fine there.

Anyway, sending a huge hug and it's ok to feel how you feel. Parenting doesn't come with a manual and it sounds like you're doing your best. The fact you feel guilty for feeling this way shows you are a good mum too.
I always felt like nobody else ever really "gets it" and the stuff that works for other kids never worked for mine. Your experience is valid.

Well first of all it's a phase he us going through so it won't last forever.
However it's still bloody annoying when you are living through it.
I've not read all the replies so I may say opposite to people are repreat whst they've said.
Everytime he licks I would say a firm' No' pick him up and remove him from the room for a short while. I would have a neutral face expression so he is not getting a reaction from you. After a short while let him back in. If he does i again repeat, this time lea ing him a bit longer. He is not a little toddler, he can understand he has to change his behaviour.
Actually you could do similar for all the things. Pelting off at the park, you return home etc. It puts you out in the short term but he will learn.
Honestly it will get better and this stage doesn't last for ever
What you will be doing is disciplining him and putting boundaries in place.
Discipline is not a dirty word it's just teaching him what he can and cannot do.

Good luck. Be a strong, firm, loving mum and it will reap you rewards as they get older.

CBG - what I was taught in teacher training: Catch them Being Good. Try to praise and reward him frequently when he's not doing anything irritating, even if it’s just how quietly he's sitting while watching tv, or how he's followed a simple instruction like "Come and eat your dinner now".

Your getting some harsh replies here, but can I ask did you have any PND or anything after his birth? Do you feel you bonded well when he was a baby but his behaviour has been the pain point for finding your relationship difficult? Or have you always felt different towards him to your younger baby?

You don't need to answer these questions to me, your getting some heat already and I'd understand entirely depending on your answer why you wouldn't post it online. But if its possible your bond was disrupted by PND and his behaviour is actually making that bond harder to keep hold of.
If you deep down have got that bond, and it is his behaviour, if you have tried everything standard with discipline then please contact your local health visitor before he hits 5. Once he's into school you'll struggle to get any support from anywhere. Does he have any particular interests that you could particularly focus on with him?

As a side note, you can also Google the Lets Talk service about some counselling, they do a personal assessment then offer different types for therapy. Are you doing anything for yourself, a hobby, space to go for a walk etc. how are you regulating your own emotions?

Lastly, don't be afraid to use reins in public even if he is 5, or 6. Your keeping him safe and thats the priority, don't worry about what any other person thinks and if he doesn't like them he's old enough to begin to learn to lose them he must listen and be safe. You can buy some really sturdy ones for escapies.

I think one of the issues is that you 've not fully thought through the logistics of now having 2 small children rather than one. Neither can be left to their own devices as they're too small. So you need to think through everything a few steps ahead of them. So if you are out with DS and baby then you can't "hold" baby as then you can't control DS (by holding his hand etc). SO baby in sling/backpack so you have your hands free to hold DS. Or baby in buggy and DS on a long strap (rather than reins). WHen I had 2 under 2 just leaving the house was a long process. DD1 in the sitting room behind stair gate, DD2 in her baby chair in hall whilst I took the buggy down the front steps, DD2 into buggy, finally DD1 into buggy etc etc. Everything has to be thought through like that because you can't rely on either to stay put. It was a huge shock to go from one to two and realise the amount of thinking through/advance planning needed for even the simplest of tasks.

Hi @hoppingandhop
there are a few things going on that could contribute to you feeling like this.

Firstly though, if you’re in a situation where you cannot immediately prevent your little boy from running off, altering how you go about things will keep you all safe.
So reins yes - he’s only 4 so reins are totally appropriate, especially if you have a baby to look after at the same time. You’re the responsible adult for both of your children and you know how to keep them safe. A baby carrier might be easier, so you are hands free for your son.

Second, do you think you could have postnatal depression? Have you spoken to a health visitor about your little boy and how you struggle to connect with him and how he behaves - which is kind of typical for a 4 yr old but which can wear down a saint when you have a new baby too? Do you go to any mum groups? Chatting stuff over with other mums and where you little boy can play with other children while you have a cup of tea might be nice once a week.

Do you have family support? So you can spend more time with your son, playing and having fun- giving yourself a break from the baby too?

Sounds very like my son who has just been diagnosed as autistic and they recommended an adhd assessment when he's old enough. Nursery would swear on their lives that nothing is amiss either. My son needs strict boundaries which are very clear. If he runs off he knows that the activity is over. If we need to be somewhere and he messes then it's in the buggy he goes. Some days are better than others but you have to not take it personally, he's not doing it on purpose.

Do your local health trust or GP service offer parenting courses? For various reasons (suspected SEN) we did one with my middle child- 1,2,3 magic and it really worked. It involves clearly stating what you want to happen calmly “Alfie I need you to stop banging on that door now” and then giving 3 chances. If they don’t do it they get some time out and then we discuss the behaviour and the consequence clearly. Not everyone agrees with it but it worked for us. I am also completely rigorous about following through with consequences.

It sounds to me as though you need to try to find a consistent and calm discipline technique and then use it relentlessly. Until you’ve worked that out I’d honestly keep days out with him to a minimum and use reins/ the pushchair.

I think it's more than likely that your child has some sort of additional needs, and that all the perfectly good ordinary parenting you are doing is not working because of those needs. Mumsnet with its obsession with 'love bombing', 'gently parenting'. very amateur psychology and love of guilt tripping is unlikely to help. I hope that some professionals may be able to help - with support from nursery, reception class at school.

That feeling of having tried everything, having read loads of parenting books, having listened to loads of advice, having set loads of boundaries and nothing working is very very common for parents of neuro diverse kids.

Neither nursery or school will explicitly tell you that they have suspicions so you need to ask the question, and ask it outright. "DS is really struggling with some areas at home, and I have been wondering whether there might be something underlying going on for him. Have you seen any evidence of autism, ADHD or any learning difficulty."

There is nothing specificially in your OP that shouts out to me, but it's worth a read about the subject and to see if anything resonates.

I'd also try having some calm conversations with him and see if that makes a difference. You could start off with "I've noticed that you're having a hard time holding my hand when we're in a busy place and I'm wondering why that is?" and see what he says. "I've noticed that you've started licking me and your sister recently. What makes you feel like you want to lick us?"

I feel for you!

No other advice other than yes to reigns! My ds was a runner and tall for his age but I insisted on reigns because he would just run with no care as to where we were, parks, busy roads, train stations, supermarkets. I'd have it wrapped round my wrist too and hold his hand, if I let go of his hand to get my purse or something, he would try to run so that's why I wrapped the strap round my wrist so I could pull him back.

I used to get people staring at us thinking why is a 4/5 yo on reigns but I could not give a flying fuck!! My 3 yo needed to be kept safe.

Have 1 to 1 time, go for a walk in the park, shops, wherever with the reigns on, strap wrapped around your wrist, talk about trusting him stay with you even if you let go of hand. Only when he can prove himself, will you let him off the reigns.

It was the only way my son learnt not to run off. I know it sounds harsh but tough love time. It was a very exhaustive process but needs must!

OP - you also don’t just wish you had one child. You wish you only had your second child. Can I ask how old your second child is? Are they at a non-demanding stage (unsure if they are still a baby)?
How did you feel about your DS either before your second was born, or when he was that age?
I think that is really relevant.

My eldest DS was incredibly challenging and I have had years and years where things were so tough and both of us wondered what on earth to do. But he’s older now and we have the best relationship. Please don’t give up on your DS. It can take so long to turn the ship and a massive part of that is changing your own mindset on this as the adult.

This, sometimes I remember when I had my middle child my oldest would act out and be really annoying, licking us, having tantrums etc and in the throws of sleep deprivation etc I don't think I dealt with it great.

I think 3/4 is a particularly hard work age, they are frustrating and annoying, and then if you have a baby/toddler the contrast is even more obvious when they're still small and easy. Your child sounds normal if a bit of a handful and I think you're maybe just finding things a bit difficult which is understandable, do you have much support?

Could you be trying to parent the child you want instead of the one you have? Are you connecting over the things he likes to play with, or are you trying to force activities that don't really hold his interest?
It sounds fairly normal boundary pushing behaviour, your reaction to it is obviously feeding it so I'd try ignore/redirect as much as possible and take the emotion out of it. Your baby will eventually be 4 and doing these same things to drive you mad remember so try not to compare them favourably.

This is not just your son, mine says things like I hate you and I hate my life, and go away. Sometimes they throw things, if they do it is a case of bite your lip and provide appropriate guidance and/or punishment.
Your child is not different, you can't take it personally, they are expressing what they feel in the moment and they have limited vocabulary and limited ability to know how to use words and tone of voice.
One thing is to not do too much. For example, steps down to a beach with a big drop, I just wouldn't have bothered with that and done something else. Iv'e spent days on holiday in the nearest soft play instead of visiting the actual local area as it was the least stressful thing for all of us. I had a 4 year old and a baby, it's tough. My 4 year old broke his arm jumping off a climbing frame when baby was about 4 weeks old, he decided to jump, for no reason off the platform bit at the top of a slide.
I found my son got easier to manage around age 8 or 9, until then I was run ragged!

It's not clear to me if you and his Dad are still together?

When my son was 4 and his baby sister was 1, he was also really hard work. I think having a new baby in his life and starting school all had a massive effect on him. He would kick me, shout, ignore, refuse to get buckled in his car seat. Once I spent about 45 mins trying to get him
buckled in while the baby also screamed. It was horrible.

my son isnt ND. At the time, he had have a speech delay which I think massively contributed to his frustration. We had to be very firm with consequences such as taking away favourite toy, going to your room etc. but also we did lots of positive rewards too. If he got in the car seat sensibly all day, he got a little toy (like a cheap party bag one or something). If he was kind and gentle he got a sticker. This seemed to really help.

4 year olds are really hard work. You will get through this time. But he really is behaving quite normally for his age and for the fact he also has a new younger sibling too.

Ah OP I really feel for you.

I’ve had some success in the past with some of the strategies in How To Talk So Little Kids Listen and also some of Janet Lansbury’s stuff around respectful parenting and boundaries. It’s a tricky age with transitions and emotions, but if you find a sort of framework for consistency in how you deal with stuff I think it helps. Too many different methods just end up diluting it all, so I’d suggest finding something that resonates and sticking to it, as it might take time to see changes.

All behaviour is communication, so it might just be figuring out what’s he is trying to communicate. Is he in childcare? How’s his behaviour there?

I know know Ive already replied but I wouldn't initially jump to a SEN. Ds2 was like this for a while.
I'm wondering if ds is playing up because of the baby and it's his way of getting you attention.
I'm not saying you aren't giving him attention, of course not, but maybe in his eyes evertime he see you feed,play, change baby it's taking you away from him.

Don't wish you could turn the clock back. All this is fixable!
Also, it's probably been mentioned, if you can, have time just you and him may e at a soft play and McDonald's or whatever afterwards from time to time.

Your son might be picking up on the fact that you don’t like him and is craving attention. Especially since you admit you prefer to spend time with his sibling. He might unintentionally or subconsciously be picking up on it.
secondly people are offering advice and your response is that doesn’t work, tried it, what am I supposed to do. But at age 4 what have you tried for a sustained period of time. For example if you give him a consequence for running off and then he runs off again later do you follow through with the consequence again or do you just fling your hands up and say that didn’t work?? You need to implement a consistent consequence over several incidents to see if it has impact.

This is excellent advice, but unfortunately, the OP has stated she "doesn't plan to" go on any parenting courses.

Being annoying and not listening is quite a normal phase for this age- not all children obviously but some. My son was a bolter and while this was mostly to do with his ND it’s still terrifying as he wouldn’t/couldn't listen and stop so he had a buggy and reins which were taken everywhere until he was 6 and he started to be able to keep hold of my hand.

I’m not suggesting your son is ND but would the “threat” of reins when out and about work? As in “mummy gave you the chance to walk nicely and not run off. You ran off so now you have to be on reins until mummy can trust you”.

Btw: I don’t always like my kids all of the time either. Some days are really bloody long.

This, gentle parenting got nowhere with my sons. They respknd much better and actually now articulate that they prefer a sort of sargent major approach😂. If I give them an inch they take several miles!

I go through phases of feeling a bit of hostility towards my 4yo too, whose behaviour sounds similar to what you describe. I've noticed that I feel hostile towards him when I have unmet needs of my own (tired, hungry, needing a break, upset about something unrelated) and I think his out of control behaviour is often a reaction to feeling disconnected from me. When I'm feeling calm and content myself, I'm more likely to see his behaviour as just typical little kid stuff and either join in and be playful (e.g. roaring like lions, shouting as loud as we can), or calmly but firmly correcting and removing him if his behaviour is inappropriate, e.g. banging on doors, being too loud in public etc. He will also sometimes laugh when being corrected, and I've noticed for him it actually seems to indicate he's anxious, often because he can sense I am anxious. My advice would be to check in with how you're feeling when he's acting out and try to take care of your own needs first, you'll probably find he's actually reacting to you, not causing your negative feelings. Ignore anyone judging you, you clearly want to change this dynamic, so it's all about believing you can.