To find DS4 so bloody annoying

[hoppingandhop]

I feel rotten as he’s only a little kid but he’s such hard work. Here are some examples which I’m not looking for advice on per se, its more to give an idea what life with him is like.

• licking people. He’s started trying to lick my face and his sisters face. We hate it. Tell him to stop and laughs and tries to do it more. Move him away he moves back.
• whines for things all the time, toys, ice cream,
• has taken to shouting. Not saying anything or for any reason like fear or pain just suddenly lets loose with a massive bellow AHHHH. Then stops.

there’s a lot more. He also often doesn’t listen to anything we/I say. Some more examples are

• Pelting off when we were at a park and ignoring me shouting to come back. I ran after him and couldn’t find him for ages. Eventually find him by a pond.
• on holiday we were going down a steep flight of steps with no guard on one side. The wall was on the other. I was holding a baby so couldn’t supervise (he suddenly took off) people above were screaming at me to get him to come back and I’m yelling come back DS but he just … blanks me. It’s like no one’s spoken. This happens a LOT but these were two very dangerous occasions.

its a horrible thing to admit but I just wish I didn’t have him. I hate spending time with him as he’s either annoying, completely not listening (blanking me) or being downright nasty to me and sometimes he is.

I like being a parent to my other child but not him and keep wondering wtf is wrong with me. I’m sure a lot of stuff is him trying to make a connection but when you try more positive ways it doesn’t work.

It's absolutely clear (to all but idiots) that you are not the fount of all evil, just a stressed and concerned mother. Those of us who have been there are very sympathetic, and I hope that helps a bit.

There have been numerous lovely posts @notwavingbutdrowning1 and I think even for neurotypical children who are normally well behaved holidays we a big disruption to routine, if I think from DS’s point of view he’s spent hours in a car, he’s been eating crap, he’s not been having regular meal or bed times, he’s been busy and active with no down time. When I look at it like that of course he’s been a PITA. DD the same but she’s younger and easier to go along with the flow but she’s had a few uncharacteristic meltdowns!

Firstly op:
4 year olds can be not that pleasant to be honest. Old enough to run off, fast, say hurtful things, young enough to be selfish small tyrants with limited empathy.

Secondly:
Parenting strategies take years to pay off. Longer if a few bad habits have crept in and need to be unlearned. You have to consistently impose consequences for years etc. It's hard, its boring, and it feels like it isn't bearing fruit.

I once asked my Dsis in frustration when DS would actually just obey an instruction without shouting/brute force etc (he was about four) and she said "when he's about eight". She was pretty much right too.

A minority of children are oddly placid/compliant, lots aren't. You have to teach them through endless repetition that:

• you will stop bad behaviour every time
• bad behaviour will never achieve the desired attention/reward
• there will be negative consequences every single time.

You have to be prepared to let your child cry. You have to be willing to make your own life harder by saying no screens as a consequence, when you are desperate for the half hour of peace the tv or tablet gives you. You have to accept that imposing firm boundaries will trigger more tantrums in the short term.

It does pay off. DS was a bit of a rotter at 4, at 8 he's a "delightful sensible boy" (his teachers words). His little sister isn't quite there yet but miles better at 6 than 4.

Also maybe shift the kinds of holidays? My children were hideous if out of their normal routine at that age. They had their normal bedtimes and meal times whether on holiday or not.

Distraction is your friend. If he starts playing up ( which is completely normal 4 year old behaviour) try and distract from the behaviour.

No he's too old for this. Distraction is what you do for babies and toddlers who haven't yet linked cause and effect etc, don't understand everything you say. A child who'll be starting school next term needs to face consequences for poor behaviour.

I get it op, I was in a similar situation when my two were younger

My approach was to keep things very, very low key - so only go to places where they can't escape/run in the road etc

Fenced gardens, etc

We were at the park a LOT

I am so sorry that you are going through this. Could it be that he is a bit bored and needs more stimulation and responsibilities? Hopefully you will find that when he starts school things really improve.

I don’t know if this will help @hoppingandhop, but I’m posting it because I hope it will and I certainly intend it to be. The way you speak about your DS is significantly more positive than previous times you’ve posted. I suspect that means that things are getting better and you are coping better than perhaps it feels in the moment.

As a mum of 3 loud and boisterous boys the behaviour you describe does sound a little more than “normal” and does sounds exhausting so you have my sympathy. My 4 year old has his moments but then is the sweetest and funniest boy so I can manage the tantrums!

With all my boys I’ve noticed a direct link between food, sleep, exercise and behaviour. If they are full, well rested and have exercised that day they are a joy. If they are hungry, tired and haven’t done anything physical they can be grumpy, moody and fight each other.

there’s a book called “ how to talk to kids so they will listen “ which is worth a read.

I do think you need to keep in mind it might be something neurodivergent going on especially if sensory issues already been detected. Does he have empathy for others. A few months ago I was exhausted as not very well and parenting alone and all the boys were just going a bit wild and I ended up crying . They all stopped. Older boys immediately asked what was wrong and what could they do and said sorry for being noisy and fighting and youngest one cuddled me. If you got upset would he care / be upset?

Try the incredible years - its a good book or audiobook
I did the parenting course and found it do helpful (twice in fact - once when mine were all under 4 and second time when they were all later primary school as support was so good)

Sensory issues? Er no.For God's sake he is a little 4 year old. It will pass.

I don’t believe it’s always down to parenting and sometimes just personality.

Ds1 (3) is wonderful but has always been very intense since a newborn. Even in the womb he was kicking constantly. I remember the HV was shocked at his 9-12 month check up as he threw an almighty tantrum in front of her.I have a photo of him being pulled out of me during my c section and he was batting the surgeons hands out the way.😂He used to head-bang and throw himself on the floor if anything didn't go his way. He gets glowing nursery reports and is very popular. He’s calmed down a lot now and no longer tantrums but still needs a very strict schedule and to burn energy daily.

On the other hand, ds2 is much more placid and laid back. Even his cry is much more gentle like a baby lamb compared to ds1 who used to bellow and scream at his age. I was pleasantly shocked how he will happily sit in his buggy/car seat/high chair, which ds1 wouldn’t do.

Ah, OP, you’ve had a hard time on this thread. To me it sounds like you’re a great mum who is trying her best to deal with her difficult ds.

Have a 🍷 and a 🛀 this evening. Try to relax. Tomorrow is another day.

when you’re back in routine and your ds is rested and well fed, I’m sure things will look brighter.

I feel you OP. I too have a nearly 4 year old who can't do what they're told and are constantly pushing me to shouty mummy stage.

My childminder calls it the 'fucking fours'.

Have you explored neurodiversity of some sort? PDA/asd/adhd?

@hoppingandhop just wanted to send you squishes. Massive ones.

mine are now 31 and 24 and I recall the days of wishing I had a Time Machine and to return to just the one child. Mine were the other way round. First born was so chilled out and I loved being a mum to him. DS2 came along and oh my lord. I was not ready.

years of one issue after another with sleep, diet, development, temper, everything.

He was diagnosed with Asperger’s at around 7 years old and it made so much sense looking back.

you will find a way to get through this and he will become a fabulous child again I’m sure.

but Dad needs to get in the same page - I feel it’s even more important with children like ours. No being soft etc when both parents have agreed certain boundaries, behaviours and expectations.

good luck. This will pass.

OP, please go easy on yourself. Sounds like you’re trying really hard to have a better relationship with your son so well done for trying.

I am in a similar situation. I find my DS (7) such hard work and most of the time he just seems to despise me. He adores his dad but quickly loses his temper at me.

As a result, some days I avoid him which probably makes things worse. DP says I need to try harder, but it’s exhausting and I don’t know how to break the cycle.

Hopefully your son will turn a corner soon.

@hoppingandhop I know you mentioned you have tried lots of parenting books but have you read the Explosive Child? I found it really useful in understanding my child more and thinking about how I approached things.

Also, from what you have said about your son, have you considered that he might have a sensory processing disorder? It sounds like this might explain some of the things you mentioned about not recognising bodily sensations and the not listening/responding to you. The NHS has some online resources called That Makes Sense (also on youtube) that may be worth having a look at.

I highly doubt you are the only parent ever to have thought how much easier life would be with one child - it doesn't mean you don't love your son x

This is really hard to read tbh. My nephew behaved similarly and was diagnosed with autism. He had a particularly bad spell around 4/5.

I can't help but feel that your feelings towards him are potentially fuelling the behaviour. Children can pick up on negativity.

It's good you can be honest and get your feelings out but regretting he was born is a problem and I think you should ask for some official support. I have friends who have done the same when they have dealt with behavioural issues. I know you said you don't want advice but you need to move forward somehow.

I'm going to be the honest one here: you wish your child doesn't exist because you are getting annoyed by his behaviour for which you have responsibility to parent.

It's postnatal depression at best, selfish narcissism at worst.

Hell my child annoys the living lights out me recently but I could not imagine my life without that feral racoon.

I echo everyone's elses sentiment of getting help from your HV because wishing you wouldn't have had your child is not normal parent mentality.

You are the adult, you are the parent. You have to change YOUR behaviour to make it work. Get it together because you can't tell me there is not a shred of love for that child.

Absolute infuriating post to read, wishing a child wouldn't be there because of getting licked and whining.

Get help.

Some of this rings bells with me. DS was diagnosed with inattentive ADHD much later at 13 but was a "difficult" child to parent in some of the ways you describe.
It was hard and lonely because I think people probably just thought I was doing a crap job. But all the usual advice didn't work at all.

My youngest son (aged 3) is like this. He just doesn't listen. He touches (/breaks) everything. You have to hold his hand the whole time you are out because he will just run off. He is like a ninja and escapes from underneath the restaurant table when you turn for 5 seconds to get the ketchup. We have done everything we did with our older two but it just didn't/doesn't work with him, and I know others must judge us when out and about. Heck, I would have judged us until id experienced it.

He also has additional needs; he is on a support plan at nursery and usually has 121 support there. (Side note: sometimes I think it might be harder if your child is borderline SEN as then you get less support/understanding.)

There have been several moments when I have thought how much life would have been easier if we'd stopped at two. BUT I also love and enjoy him fiercely. My husband would probably write something similar to you and I feel gutted that for him the struggles outweigh the magic.

I have found getting involved with local neurodiverse parenting groups (online and in-person) helpful, as its reassuring to hear from other parents and helpful to take away techniques. E.g. my son is very sensory seeking so we do sensory circuits and there was a great resource I was given called 'making sense of sensory behaviour'. Reading that was like a lightbulb moment for me. And even if your child isn't neurodiverse the principles would help any child.

I also try to pick my battles and lower my expectations. I know, for example, that even though he is toilet trained I can't let him go into a hotel bathroom solo because he WILL lock it. Or drink from the toilet bowl. Or take his socks off and throw them down the toilet. So I just don't let him go into a hotel bathroom solo.

I also try to slow down to do more of the things I enjoy with him (mostly physical stuff because he is SO physical and loves it). The more we bond and have fun together the more he seems to listen - although even then it's v v selective listening.

I don't always get it right and there are certainly tough/draining days but overall the good outweighs the bad.

The fact you are raising this shows you care and are concerned. I really hope things get better for you both and that you found some useful advice here💐

Dear OP,

I read your replies but not all the other posters, so I hope I am not repeating anything.

You do sound angry, but I have been there myself in some way or another with my own children. I had at one point gone crazy as three of my children rolled melons down the Tesco aisle. It isn’t fun and took days for me to calm down.

I had a runner as well, but I was lucky that he never ran away in a dangerous place and that I was a fast runner myself. I was always able to catch him. He used to have a great teacher that would make him run around the playground at least once before he would sit and work. He is undiagnosed, but always assumed he has ADHD / autism. Now he is 15 years old and he is not running anywhere - wont even move off his computer chair.

The behaviour you are describing reminds me of him, he would be impulsive but I would make sure he had a lot of exercise (swings at the park / running with a ball / walking around the country). We are generally more prone to hyperactivity from chocolates/sweets in our family, so I had to keep it down to a minimum (only on a Saturday afternoon, still a family tradition).

Another example of a child in a nursery I worked in included a child with ADHD, and he would be a risk taker (jumping off really high places, going upside down on a see-saw, running super fast and sliding everywhere / handstands). It reminds me of this situation, and I wonder if your nursery have seen him take risks such as these? He had difficulties with impulse control, and was always close to hurting himself. It was unusual because he was a very bright child and he was meeting all his early years milestones.

You mentioned that he is worse when both you and your DH are there, and this could also be a sign that he is (also) seeking attention from you. Some children are super smart, and they know what buttons to push to get attention, and any attention is good even if they are being told off. In those instances they say to give attention and praise when you see good behaviour and eventually they will respond.

Good luck, hope I didn’t rabbit on too much.

I agree with this. Feral racoon and all.

Also, don't discount ADHD if he doesn't seem "hyper", inattentive ADHD lacks the hyper fidgety behaviour but can have a strong element of impulsivity.
I very much recognise what you say about the not stopping when told until you really go mad and then he is scared. DS was like that and it is soooo hard to deal with. It was like he couldn't stop and pull back until he had pushed it way way too far iyswim. But it was awful. Remaining completely calm and ignoring worked best but sometimes that's not possible because the behaviour is dangerous and then you are on the unstoppable path to shouting and scaring and a massive upset. We talked each time about what had happened and tried techniques for him to calm down in the moment etc but nothing really worked.