The pope has died

[BombayBicycleclub]

https://news.sky.com/story/pope-francis-has-died-the-vatican-says-12890455 just that really. Will they do the conclave now? Or in a few days as it’s Easter?

Much easier to make places where the 'baptised man' prescription becomes 'baptised Christian' than to ordain men as priests. Jesus liked women, he listened to women. He really put the boot into priests a few times.

As it happens I think we need priests, despite Jesus' recognition of how having religious authority can lead men astray, and I think we need them to be celibate men. I also think we could do with a lot more deacons, single and married, men and women. And a possibility of taking monastic vows for ten years rather than a lifetime.

@MistressoftheDarkSide The Catholic Church - like the other early Christian Churches - was started by Jesus
The first Pope was St Peter
Jesus chose 12 male apostles to follow him and then to spread His Word.
Jesus was not disrespectful to women, but as someone else has said - in the Jewish Faith the role of being a mum/ childcare is very important

The Catholic Church can’t actually win. Accused of not following the Bible, and then when it does follow the Bible it’s slagged off.

I was at a Eucharistic Catholic Service lead by a woman just last week - because the Priest was away. The Host was already consecrated

But I think you also don’t really care, and do just want to attack the Roman Catholic Church.
Are there female leaders in the Muslim Church?

To be fair, I think performative acts are inevitable and very much part of the job description when you are head of a church with a congregation of 1.3 billion members!

I don’t know what the arrangements are for the homeless around the Vatican but I can take you to lots of day centres and outreach projects for the homeless runs by nuns and priests in various cities across the UK and France if you like?

From Google
Pope Francis took significant steps to address homelessness near the Vatican, including turning a historic palace into a shelter for the homeless. He also established a shelter called "Gift of Mercy" ("Dono di Misericordia") just outside the Vatican walls. Additionally, he organized for showers in public restrooms and allowed a deceased homeless man to be buried in the Vatican

This was covered in the Sunday Times today. I think Pope Francis did more than this, and also brought migrants back to safety in the Vatican

@YourAmplePlumPoster @Conversationkiller654 Washing of the feet on Holy Thursday happens in every RC Church on Holy Thursday
It remembers Our Lord washing the Disciples feet and is not performative

When Pope Francis died, the sum total of his possessions was about $100.

he didnt have a personal bank account.

he declined to accept the salary that the Church grants to the Pope.

he lived in very modest AirBnB style accommodation.

he did more to try and make reparations in his own personal humble way, for all the scandals that have beset the Church over the generations than any of his predecessors.

its so true that you often don't know the good someone has done until they're dead and gone. His goodness lives on. The day of his funeral was a beautiful sunny day....

Cardinal Basil Hume thought women priests would happen before married priests. The latter being too expensive to maintain. But it's a weird situation now - married priests can convert from the C of E. One such presided at my mums funeral. But Catholic priests can't marry. It's just not sustainable. OK some Catholics will leave if there is change of any sort. People left after vernacular Mass cake in. But nothing like as many as dropped out when Paul VI ruled out contraception?

I'm not sure of what I think of the married priests who converted from C of E purely on the issue of women in the priesthood....

Our priest (not a convert) had a "life" before being ordained so maybe that is another way to entice people (men) in.

On Easter Sunday, the word "vocation" was brought up in the homily and I noticed a couple of teenage boys looking petrified !!

Contraception is the huge central dishonesty of thought that needs to be taken out and looked at - with a side order of admitting that human sexuality isn't just something to be done out out duty to procreate, and that pleasure is not, of itself, sinful.

Apart from anything else, that will make it possible to be really honest about the stuff that is sinful - violating consent, violating those unable to consent.

Arguably though, contraception makes sex too easily available and demeans it as a loving act.
I think that is where the Church is coming from. Overtime the availability of contraception means sex is no longer part of a long term loving marriage. It’s just an expectation of any relationship- even one night.
Having to pay more attention to periods of fertility and of less fertility in the month actually increases the value of sex to individuals in the couple. It’s not just about pleasure, it’s also about respect.

We did use contraception. By the time of my 4th child’s christening the Priest who baptised him actually said to me ‘No more children. It’s hard on the mother’.
Priests do live in the real world.

We also have personal choice - I look to the Church for guidance and support - not for absolute rules.

It comes from the Aristotelian notion of telos - the purpose of sex is reproduction, nothing else, as such sex for any other purpose is disordered. Plenty of consenting sex is sinful. It is an ethical system we ought to return to, or at the very least, hope the Church can somehow influence the wider world. I think we need to be honest about how dangerous sex is psychologically for people who do not try and control their appetites. This is God's will we are talking about not some utilitarian enslavement to the pleasure principle.

I'm not sure what you meant about the stance on contraceptives being dishonest.

Because it doesn't let people like the priest mentioned above, who recommended contraception, or the priest I knew who met a menopausal woman in a confession box who had not been to communion for decades because she had been told that having another baby would kill her, and now wanted to 'come back', to talk about that openly. And that in turn prevents open discussion of all the issues around sex and reproduction.

It’s a nonsense to suggest Catholics are not using contraception. There are very very few larger families attending church and certainly vanishingly few with 7+ children.

Absolutely agree.
But in my experience the stance on contraception is dishonest because it is ignored by everyone I know.

It is really good to read a discussion on here about Catholic theology with so many contributors who a) actually know something about Catholicism and b) are willing to concede that there is sometimes value in being counter cultural.

Yes.
Pope Francis visited prisoners every Thursday . (one of the Catholic corporal works of mercy )
He made his final visit on the Thursday before he died.
There was nothing “performative” about it.

I’m well aware of that RedRosesPinkLilies!

I was replying to another poster about performative acts. I was saying that when you are Pope, in a sense that’s part of your job, not that the annual washing of the feet is performative in the sense of it therefore being without meaning. Very much the reverse!

But everything the Pope does, within the Catholic liturgy, or when spontaneously meeting and greeting individual in crowds, is performative in the sense that he is doing these things sincerely but he knows he is also being watched by thousands of people, and very often, he wants to send a certain message.

@Conversationkiller654 sorry about that. Performative has negative connotations for me
@DeanElderberry The Priest shouldn’t be sharing what is said in the confessional - that is strictly confidential
I am sorry for what the lady experienced and can only think she must be a devout woman to be feeling like that.

Thanks but no need to apologise!

The word can have very negative connotations and I didn’t explain it very well.

He wasn't telling us anything about an identifiable person, or even what country she lived in. Yes, she was obviously very devout.

That's no way to live. Being poor and suffering is not the same as being a good person. I'm with David Hume on not seeing any worth in these "monkish virtues".

I didn't know Basil Hume was into women priests. Good man. Incidentally I was an altar server at a mass he did in the late 90s. He had this big entourage of about 50 priests saying mass with him and each of the priests had a couple of kids to use as book stands or things to put candles on our whatever. It was like something out of Monty Python. Good times.

It's pretty much his job to perform rituals so you can't really fault the man for it. And as pointed out it's standard practice in every Catholic church. What does get performative in my experience is when they get lay people to volunteer to do it as well. It must be hard to do that without looking like a bit of a prick. Maybe best to do that in another church where you're not known. It's probably why penitent societies in Spain came up with those KKK costumes.

@PantyBear The washing of the feet comes from Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God washing the feet of his Apostles.
If all you can be is rude, then I am not interested in your remarks.

I think Pope Francis actually lived in the Casa Santa Marta at the Vatican (the guest house where the Cardinals will stay during Conclave) and was looked after by the nuns there, having chosen not to move into the palatial Papal Vatican apartments. I'm not sure there was any ascetic mortification involved or desire for such, just a reasonable personal choice in keeping with his wish to be in touch with ordinary life as far as he could.

We can't have it both ways though, he'd have attracted as much if not more criticism had he been fonder of the trappings than he clearly was.

ETA I actually found him being driven to his last resting place in his Popemobile strangely moving, much more so than an elaborate procession.