The pope has died

[BombayBicycleclub]

https://news.sky.com/story/pope-francis-has-died-the-vatican-says-12890455 just that really. Will they do the conclave now? Or in a few days as it’s Easter?

Don't need to, I know what it is. My point is that the Church can change the rules as and when it suits, you will of course be fully aware that it was fine for priests to marry up to the 12th century.

11 years of Catholic school, altar server for several years, 2 philosophy degrees that engaged a bit with some Catholic thinking. Enough to know that many of the doctrines of the church are based on custom rather than scripture, that the church has often adopted values and practices from outside the church and presented them as part of an eternal unchanging/unchangeable continuity. A female pope is going to happen. Probably not in our lifetimes but it definitely won't happen as long as we all keep silent and think it's ok for a majority female religious community to exclude women from all leadership roles.

The Vatican has affirmed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights so this is a legitimate argument within Catholic thought about how best to sort out the contradictions in that system of thought.

The RC church makes no secret that it bases it's doctrine as much in church teaching, guided by the Holy Spirit, as scripture. It was one of the cornerstones of the Reformation. I'm not wading through theology for you..go do your own research. I'm still on Easter Hols for one more day! Incidentally, if it matters, I'm an atheist. I'm not defending the church out of religious sensibilities.

Well that's quite the Revelation.

So why are you defending it?

I hope it happens one day PantyBear.

I’m no expert on these matters, and I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, but as I understand it, the objection to women priests is not theological. Also, there were quite a few early leaders of the church who were women.

Nowadays, most intelligent Catholic women who have a vocation other than becoming a nun, have moved on elsewhere, and I find it terribly sad that women’s roles within the church in 2025 are still so subservient. Pope Francis did his best but the pace of change is infinitesimally slow.

For example, why don’t we see senior nuns and female theologians included in the conclave?

Because I respect the fact that people can hold beliefs out of a deep and sincere faith and just because they don't align with mine does not mean they are wrong or need to be forcefully overturned. There are over a billion Catholics in the world who can freely chose not to be if they like. Some of the most intelligent and methodical thinkers through history held these beliefs. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to come along and sweep it all away in righteous 21st century indignation.

I might agree with you if so much in modern politics wasn't underpinned by faith based ideas that actively make people's lives more difficult than they need to be. I'm very "live and let live" but the RC is as much a political force as a religious one.

While you say it's adherents are "free to choose" you overlook the psychological hold the church has over them, and which translates into actions that harm non-believers, and themselves. Makes a bit of a nonsense of that "alleged" free will.

And a resurgence in religion is being noted, as often is in times of turbulence and insecurity. Using "God" to rally the masses in political directions is a dangerous game, as can be observed in any extremist situation.

If you are indeed an atheist, do you agree that religion should have no place in politics?

The RC church and the Evangelical mega churches in the US have immense resources, and the ears of politicians. The latter are already trying to gain traction with Reform, (pro-life), and have vested interests in "Praying for Armageddon". Various other religions have world domination objectives.

No-one should be persecuted or denied their beliefs, but when they cause harm to others, and meddle in politics, we're on a rocky road indeed.

I think it's deeply illogical that in a country that has separation of church and state as one of its founding principles, faith has so much sway but that's democracy for you. If so many Americans hold such deep faith beliefs that it influences their vote then there's not much to be done about it. In the UK, which has bishops in house of Lords it is a far less powerful force but I don't think it's wrong they are there, alongside representatives of other faiths.
Free will is fascinating topic, especially in light of recent neuroscience but ultimately we are all products of upbringing to a greater or lesser extent and in many ways, not just religious beliefs. Adults can and do reject those beliefs.

If you look upon it as an organisation that wishes to maintain a single sex space for particular roles without others demanding that their feelings of being absolutely entitled to enter that space and access the provision by force if necessary, when there are any number of related places that offer a mixed sex provision (ie, other churches are available), maybe that would help explain the position.

Why does the RC church exclude women, yet demands authority over them?

Your argument, though "cleverly" posited, does not fly I'm afraid.

Nobody religious wants "progressive churches" otherwise they become just secular organisations like everyone else. I'm not religious but I had a Catholic father and a Jewish mother. We practiced no religion in my house. I don't understand what the C of E represents anymore. If you're going to claim you are religious, just stick to the doctrine. As religion is a protected belief, they don't have to adhere to any particular secular laws such as divorce, abortion and homosexuality.

A female Pope is going to happen. Nah. And it might lead to many Catholics leaving the Church. Why do people think religious people have to be "progressive?" They are in a religion because they're not progressive and reject secular values.

I can see woman Pope happening (in a few centuries) more easily than women priests. What is needed is a de-coupling of authority to preach and preside from being able to consecrate the eucharistic bread and wine.

Unfortunately there's that pesky bit about spreading the good news and being duty bound to bring the non-believers to heel. Which manifests in all sorts of atrocities. Being allowed to have and practise one's faith peacefully is never enough.....for some, just before I'm piled on. And unfortunately religion is a useful tool in power struggles.

I'm still waiting for a really honest and comprehensive reply regarding the position of women as a class within the RC church, and why they are barred from office.

Respectfully, this simply isn’t true and the example of Pope Francis gave us throughout his life, demonstrates why it isn’t!

Many ordinary members of the Catholic Church, especially women, desperately long for progress.

One example; Pope Francis washed the feet of migrants, the homeless, non-Christians because he wanted to demonstrate the dignity of all humanity, and that simple act combines deeply embedded religious doctrine and religious symbolism, with simple, active faith.

The great thing is that the Catholic Church permits a fair amount of hypocrisy. I used to live in Spain which has the highest number of followers of the Church, officially. All the women work and take contraception, hence the low birth rate but they all love the saints days and ceremonies of baptism and confirmation.

Pope Francis was doing performative acts, washing the feet of the homeless. Why didn't he put them up in the Vatican? There are plenty of apartments there. I visit Rome a lot to see my MiL who lives nearby and there are loads of homeless people round there. The whole place is a tip with even people taking a dump in the streets.

How much did he know?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/14/pope-francis-argentina-military-junta#:~:text=They%20say%20the%20new%20pope,denied%20and%20was%20ultimately%20cleared.

Just Google it. There's plenty out there but on a nice Sunday afternoon I can't be arsed to go find it for you

Wasn't trying to be 'clever' at all.

There are other churches available that have female ministry. And also demand authority over both their members and society as a whole. This particular church has sex specific roles and spaces - no males entering convents to live as Women Religious, cloistered or otherwise, for example.

So we're in the realms of men's and women's safe spaces, but no-one is willing to comment on the status or lack of it of women within the RC church, or why in the 21st century they are still barred from office.

I mean, I know the church graciously admitted Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute in I think the 1960s, but she's hardly been added to the official canon in any meaningful way.

Then the alleged female Pope - another in the arsenal of the "woman know your place" handbook.

Let's look at it another way. If God is all loving, and all inclusive, why should what used to be the dominant Christian religion be so opposed to equal ministry? I know most religions follow suit.... there's that word.. let me think.... patriarchy....

So come on, please, try very hard to explain what is wrong with women? Because surely there must be some important fundamental reason why women are relegated to supporting roles only?

You can’t have a woman pope, without women priests. There are three levels of priesthood:Deacon, Priest and bishop. This is why when the C of E allowed women deacons they then had to allow women priests and therefore bishops.

I was going to say this myself, but technically it only has to be a ‘baptised man’ that can be a pope. Still not a woman. But technically doesn’t need to be someone who has risen through the ranks!

In orthodox Judaism women are excluded from the minyan, the ten people needed to start a synagogue service. Not because they are lesser but because the role of managing the children and home is deemed more important. They are excluded from the duty, not the opportunity. In RC motherhood is exalted, especially in the person of Mary. Galatians 3:28 says all are equal in the eyes of God. This relates to status of worthiness for salvation, not practical roles on Earth. I don't know why it's so important that all institutions are everything to everyone.