Of course women will be safer

[HardyKoala]

Following the Supreme Court ruling. I’m flummoxed by the amount of women I considered intelligent friends, posting rubbish about how women are actually no safer and this ruling is just anti-trans. I just don’t understand how intelligent women are coming to this conclusion.

The main argument seems to be that men will be men and will still rape and assault.

Of course they will.

But now, they can no longer just assert ‘I am a woman’ and automatically be able to enter women’s spaces unchallenged to do this. And this did happen, a few examples below.

They will no longer be able to enter women’s changing rooms and film teenage girls naked. They will no longer be able to enter the women’s toilets in Morrisons unchallenged and sexually assault a 10yr old girl. They will no longer be able to be housed in women’s prisons raping vulnerable women in the shower. This will all stop.

Yes, I do understand the negative impact on a few trans women and I feel for them, but why should ALL women put themselves and their daughters at risk for this tiny minority? I just don’t get it. If you’re campaigning for anything, campaign for 3rd spaces surely? But don’t campaign to allow any man the right to enter women’s spaces.

I have no issue with trans people in any way (I know a few) but I just can’t understand this argument that all women should be more at risk. Of course most trans women aren’t a threat. But men pretending to be women for access to women ARE a threat. And this ruling makes it harder for them to rape and assault us.

The amount of friends I’m seeing posting this rubbish has thrown me. I feel like I’m in an a weird alternate reality.

Incorrect. Did you miss the post linking to the Fair Play for Women website? I think you’ve got confused as not one person on this thread has posted a link to a Times article.

I don’t think anyone has made assumptions about you either or your lived experience? But this thread is about the lived experience of women who want sex segregated spaces away from men And for good reason. Imagine the men who have been violent towards you being able to share a female only space with a vulnerable woman. How does that make you feel?

Women here are jumping on the defence because this thread isn’t the first instance of us being told to STFU and accept men into our spaces (not referring to you BTW) or have been slightly gaslighted into believing that men in dresses aren’t the problem (kind of does refer to you and the obtuseness of your “how on earth will we be safer, prove it” question). Some of us have spent over a decade invested in this, following this topic, having to read YET AGAIN about another woman raped or harmed by a TW in a space that TW shouldn’t be in - all in parallel to being told we are transphobes, bigots, TW are real women, threatened with violence doxxing, police action and reporting to our employers, and the onus is on us to make room for our oppressors. We are fed up of the same tedious baseless arguments, the same feeble attempts at a “gotcha”, the same thinly veiled attempts to tell us it’s all a fuss about nothing. We are fed up of being attacked by people who don’t even know a modicum of knowledge we do regarding this subject, and ultimately we are fed up of the lack of respect shown in these threads for women.

Actually you’ve been quite rude and demanding, all whilst telling us that we are wrong and TW are not men - you’ve demanded evidence from us then proclaimed that you CBA copying and pasting something into a URL to read it, but you’ve offered no evidence yourself that TW are “not men”. It’s not a polite way to converse on a chat thread.

The risk will come from militant TRAs who will stage incidents in women’s toilets to bully us.

I will repeat a post from upthread which I didn’t tag you into:

Op did not specifically state that we are safer due to the exclusion of Transwomen.

“The main argument seems to be that men will be men and will still rape and assault.
Of course they will.
But now, they can no longer just assert ‘I am a woman’ and automatically be able to enter women’s spaces unchallenged to do this.”

this would cover all men irrespective of whether they genuinely believe that they are women or not

“Yes, I do understand the negative impact on a few trans women and I feel for them, but why should ALL women put themselves and their daughters at risk for this tiny minority? I just don’t get it. If you’re campaigning for anything, campaign for 3rd spaces surely? But don’t campaign to allow any man the right to enter women’s spaces.
I have no issue with trans people in any way (I know a few) but I just can’t understand this argument that all women should be more at risk. Of course most trans women aren’t a threat. But men pretending to be women for access to women ARE a threat. And this ruling makes it harder for them to rape and assault us.”

she is talking about ALL men and not singling out transwomen who are of course in reality, and confirmed in law in respect to single sex spaces, men.

Where have I said anyone is wrong? The Fair Play for Women website referenced The Times article by the way, which is behind a paywall. I’ve seen and acknowledged the second article (on GRA reforms). All the while I’ve been called privileged and whiney. I’m here for evidence based and informed discussion. You can all continue with the emotive language and rhetoric, making assumptions about all women. Power on.

Someone has told you how to easily get past a paywall and you CBA - I’m really not sure what much else you want.

Im amazed someone who thinks TW aren’t men is so hell bent on an evidence base and informed discussion. Do YOU have evidence that TW are women?

Also nobody called you privileged. I asked if you were going to whine even if presented with the facts, as i got that vibe and still do - you’ve been given the facts and have nothing to say on them. You seem to be very hypersensitive

I was the one who called @batsandeggs privileged, because I think it takes a level of privilege to have not really considered the impact of men entering women's spaces on womem prisoners, domestic abuse survivors and so on.

The poster kept asking in what sense she was more safe since the ruling - and I pointed out that there were plenty of privileged women who probably wouldn't feel much difference - the impact would be more on women the women I referenced above.

Im amazed someone who thinks TW aren’t men is so hell bent on an evidence base and informed discussion. Do YOU have evidence that TW are women?

this

i like the Chesterton fence thing…

Don't ever take a fence down until you know the reason why it was put up". This quote, attributed to G.K.Chesterton, emphasizes the importance of understanding the rationale behind established practices before attempting to change or remove them

You’re really missing the point. If someone is making claims it is up the them to produce the evidence, why should I have to go and dig it out? People are content making claims without easily accessible demonstrable evidence?!

Read back further and you will see that I was called privileged. It makes no odds to me, but everyone is missing the point. My point is that rather than give evidence or have informed discussion, the push back is always “go find the evidence yourself / some random insult / use your common sense”

Up to now I haven’t even mentioned bathrooms! You have all assumed I have. The reality is that trans inclusive policy has not led to increased crime in public spaces. Trans women are more likely to be victims of violence and harassment. The evidence is there, go find it (I would typically provide it but seeing as we’re all capable of doing our searches - go ahead). That being said, there is clearly and absolutely a need for proper safeguarding policy particularly in prisons, domestic and sexual abuse survivors and so on. I fully support that. Perceived and actual risks are also important to consider, and the damage that’s being done to the trans population through some of the rhetoric and discussion being spouted on the topic is dangers and minimising the experiences of one group over another.

To be fair, you made the claim that transwomen aren't men, and I haven't seen any evidence for that

I acknowledged and responded to this this several pages back.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318216-tras-deface-millicent-fawcett-statue?page=33 like these blokes at the women's toilets at Waverley station

I'm sorry, I thought we were only dealing inevidence, would you mind repeating the evidence that transwomen are not men, as I can't seem to see it? Thanks

Ah I thought you meant in general rather than a direct reference to that poster. But yea anyone thinking that it’s just about toilets IS coming from a place of privilege. The privilege being that the bigger issues never crossed their mind because they don’t lead that kind of life

I am very happy to say that my view is that trans women are trans women. Based on this, I rephrased my question to state: Alright, if you want to say that trans women are men - of the 0.5% of trans people in the UK, how many of the 99% of male offenders (previously quoted by someone else) identify as trans women?

“Trans women are trans women” does not mean they’re not also men.
Wanting to be a woman doesn’t make you one, but it doesn’t make you not a man either.

Well yes. Of course they are men. And men commit 98% of all sex crime. If you can prove there is any difference in how much risk this specific group of men pose to women than other men, by all means do so.

For the record, I do agree with this (while also acknowledging, for anyone who wants to come at me (!), that of course for some people there are issues with public spaces and also perceived vs actual safety, and all of that is really important). But I am also really aware and conscious that many trans women are heavily impacted by the recent decision, that their own safety matters too, and informed discussions are so important. Without all the emotive rhetoric. Which is really hard to do, because for many people this is a personal and emotional issue. My own opinions are also not black and white and I genuinely am interested in discussion from both sides. I just think it’s important to really break down why people feel the way they do, use evidence where we have it, and let that aid discussion.

People HAVE given you links - you just got so deep and decided you couldn’t be arsed going further. How is that anyone’s fault but your own?

People are content making claims without easily accessible demonstrable evidence?!

Oh the irony 🤣 where’s your evidence transwomen aren’t men?

Also - people have given you links.

The reality is that trans inclusive policy has not led to increased crime in public spaces

It was never a trans inclusive policy. It’s just trans people misinterpreted it as belonging to them. Nevertheless - are you saying that the many crimes, most of which are violent and sexual, perpetrated by TW didn’t happen? Why else would you say crimes on public spaces haven’t increased? They have.

Trans women are more likely to be victims of violence and harassment

So now I’m going to challenge you to prove this based of evidence. I hope you aren’t content making claims without easily accessible demonstrable evidence!!

The evidence is there, go find it

To use YOUR words if someone is making claims it is up the them to produce the evidence, why should I have to go and dig it out?

the damage that’s being done to the trans population through some of the rhetoric and discussion being spouted on the topic is dangers and minimising the experiences of one group over another.

Then trans people can address it. Nobody is stopping them. Women don’t have to sort out everybody’s problems you know.

Did you? I haven’t seen any evidence provided that transwomen are women I’d be amazed if you did give it considering the Supreme Court couldn’t even come to that conclusion. Have you seen evidence that they haven’t?

So just so I understand correctly, your assertions that transwomen are not men are based on...well that just being your view. But other posters statements about risk, which they have backed up with evidence, are cutting no ice because the statistics are behind a paywall that you don't want to have to put into archive.ph? I mean, that doesn't seem very even to me. Is it the HM prison stats you're looking for? I've got a pic of those

So you think your view, based on nothin at all, is acceptable but the rest of us have to provide evidence for our claims and do the hard work for you?

Also I answered that question for you. I even gave a number and 2 links.

Now pleased show us evidence that transwomen aren’t men. Or, because I’m actually really not that anal about evidence, share your reasoning.

It does if you’re a man. If a trans person isn’t a man or a woman what are they?

Yes their safety matters - but no law change has been made. Definitions have just been clarified. So really all is as it was before this self ID nonsense became mainstream. Nothing has been taken off them. And as a PP said, men using men’s facilities and women using women’s isn’t some ancient myth - it’s in living memory. We’ve known how to do it before and we can all do it again. It’s not hard.

Like I say nobody is stopping trans people from having discussions about how to keep safe. But from where I’m sitting, they don’t want to discuss that - TRAs (not all TW of course) just want to colonise women’s spaces and put no effort into creating their own.

People feel the way they do about single sex spaces because we’ve seen with our own eyes the effects on women when we give Carte Blanche access to our spaces to men. They behave like men. Get trample on us, rape us, harm us and abuse us. For a group of people who claim to be women, they behave very man-like.

Your comprehension is very poor. I have explicitly stated why I haven’t backed up my claims with evidence. I have acknowledged (three times now) that my statement “trans women aren’t men” is opinion. I made it clear within 20 minutes of making the statement that it was opinion. I have addressed two of the three pieces of “evidence” that were given to me. And the purpose of asking for and using the evidence is to support everything I have just said about making evidence based decisions, about treating everyone - women and trans women - fairly, and having safeguarding policy where applicable to do so.