Trans protest- sharing for balance

[Tandora]

There’s a thread sharing some really awful images from the protest, so I wanted to share some positive ones for the sake of some perspective/ balance.
A lot of people are really understandably incredibly angry and overwhelmed by the events of the last few days. But most people who support trans rights absolutely don’t condone fighting oppression and injustice with misogyny.

Yes look at the response to non consenting women below.

Tandora, in all seriousness, since you have stated on this thread that you have linked so much evidence on MN now, I do really recommend you start an archive thread here so that you can simply refer us to parts of that thread when we ask you to support your statements in the future.

You also need to supply all those studies that you have found to all the review teams for the different countries that have done reviews on the treatment plans, as they must have missed them in their searches.

It would surely be doing the group you support a huge favour in making sure that the national review teams had the information. Then they can change their findings to suit the studies that you have provided.

You may not be aware, but the author of the Nature article, Claire Ainsworth, has gone on the record before to make it clear the variation she was talking about (ie disorders of sex development) was within the sex binary, not outside it. She wasn’t trying to claim there were more than two sexes. Fausto Sterling did, and later said she was being “tongue in cheek”.

Hang on, you haven't read it?

Most of us actually have. So are basing statements on what is actually in the document, not regurgitating someone else's interpretation.

A TRA on Twitter actually tried to claim that the judges had purposely made the document 88 pages because that length of document is unthinkable.

Which is just a bit 🙄

But you're not offering any balance if you just insult people and refuse to provide evidence or analysis (because you've provided it before on another thread and it's too much effort for you to copy/paste it into this thread - a thread that you started to provide "balance"). Don't you see the harm you do to the trans community when you fail to argue their case coherently? You're certainly not doing them any favours.

Hahaha I hadn’t see that 😂

You often see this. When some women say 'we would gladly share third spaces and take our clothes off with you' they won't do. The goal is the non consenting ones. Which would suggest that there's something about the experience of power over those non consenting women and their responses that must be particularly rewarding.

This is a really important observation

It’s almost like there is no case.

@Tandora last chance to step up ..

Look when you find the material reality of biological sex transphobic we simply can't take any of you other accusations seriously.

Definitely.

💯

Even using disputed numbers: If trans women were hypothetically 4x more likely to offend (they're not), they'd still commit <0.1% of sex crimes given their tiny population size.

The prosecutors fallacy. The chance of being the victim of a sex crime be a trans identified man is low because the chance of being in the same space as a transidentified man is low. BUT if you are in the same space as a transidentified man identified man then the risk of being a victim is many times higher than for other men.

The thing is stating transwomen are women can never be based on anything but a stereotype of what a woman is as it is not based on objective biology. Women have spent centuries fighting the oppressiveness predicated on such stereotypes. It is therefore, inherently, a misogynistic statement. If you disagree, what defines a woman (and please don’t insult us or yourself be a self referencing definition - those days are long gone).

No one is saying Trans people don’t have rights, the court case was very clear about that. What is being said is that they don’t have women’s rights, in the same way they don’t have race rights. Now is the time to be enforcing those rights, to create safe spaces and services for trans people. For clarification these safe spaces and services are different than the ones created under the sex based rights afforded to women (adult female human) and men (adult make human). Of course trans people also have these rights according to their biological sex. Therefore a trans woman, ie a person who is biologically male will have these rights according rights accorded to men.

People and the media are trying to confuse this, trans people still have exactly the same rights as a month ago. It’s just that people have been misinterpreting the law mainly due to the purposeful confusion caused by groups such as stonewall. Trans people have never been able to change sex. The part of the Equality Act that governs women only spaces/services is, and always has been based on sex. Sex is and always will be natal and immutable in humans.

Transwomen are men, men, as a group, pose the biggest threat to women. A 9 year old boy isn’t really a threat to women, yet gyms etc seem very ready to exclude them from women’s changing rooms.

Oh God, we haven't really had both the Sex Redefined and the Fausto Sterling nonsense brought up.

I swear that there is a TRA cheat sheet from 2018 which hasn't been updated doing the rounds.

1. Trans prisoners make up 0.34% of the prison population—their offense rates are negligible in context.
2. 99% of sexual crimes in prisons are committed by cis men—your focus on trans women is a distraction.
3. GRC holders (legally female) have near-zero convictions-proving transition reduces risk.
4. Peer-reviewed studies show trans women post-transition offend at female-typical rates.

They are, Tandora and the Supreme Court judgement has just confirmed that - sex is biological not what anyone has got typed on a 5 quid piece of paper.
Single sex spaces are permitted and are divided by sex. The clues in the name, and the SC has confirmed what this means.

Tandora won’t share any links to her previous arguments because then, as now, they were easily refuted.

These threads over the past few days have been amazing. I thank each and every poster who started one. Because every single time, so many new posters join in the discussion and show that they have been reading quietly in the past and taking on board all the information that has been posted.

So, despite all the usual posters entering threads and accusing feminists of being hateful, and complaining about 'another hateful thread', there have been many many eyes reading.

And now it has reached the point where women have had enough. We had the Upton and NHS Fife statements earlier this year. And now this.

Brilliant stuff. Women are saying 'no thank you'.

In the rapacious sense, yes. In the sexual sense, it's clear that the number is not zero.

You will conclude what you will- I certainly have no control over yput conclisions. I’ve spent so many hours typing out carefully explained posts, researching links to papers, trying to search for old posts to link to or replicate (not easy to do without pro I think?) I don’t think a single person has really been interested. The same posters come back to the next thread and say “explain this” when you’ve explained it to them in detail just days ago. For them it’s not a genuine question, asked from a position of curiosity, it’s a “haha gotcha! You can’t even say what you mean!” It doesn’t matter when you prove them completely wrong. Because they were never open to hearing anything you had to say in the first place.

Maybe they would understand if the SC panel produced an interpretive dance? Or a TikTok?
With all the union support they have you would think someone would do this for them.

No thank you! No man is a woman.

No men are women. The EA says so.

I don't need the last post Tandora because forever more my post will also read.

So.... about that evidence... Care to start putting the evidence out there? At last? Or will it still just be 'go google'?

Oh.. and..

And no male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

Now is your chance Tandora... use your last post to start linking up evidence to educate us all.

Someone trying to get the last post as usual. For once, I just snuck in there 😘.

Trans lives matter. Trans people are not a threat to women. The protests yesterday were overwhelmingly peaceful. Trans people just want to be recognised , accepted and valued for who they really are.