Trans protest- sharing for balance

[Tandora]

There’s a thread sharing some really awful images from the protest, so I wanted to share some positive ones for the sake of some perspective/ balance.
A lot of people are really understandably incredibly angry and overwhelmed by the events of the last few days. But most people who support trans rights absolutely don’t condone fighting oppression and injustice with misogyny.

The life of a trans person matters.
The well being of a trans person matters.
I want trans people, like all people to be free to be as they wish without fear, harassment or distress.

you say this, which is admirable , but then your sincerity is entirely undermined when you say this,

men who want to be women

(and this - “Waving stupid placards like trans lives matters is an extension of the insidious collective gaslighting.”)

This is belittling, degrading, it is ignorance and misunderstanding. It is prejudice/ stereotyping/ discrimination. Please first educate yourself about what it is to be a trans woman before you insist you believe trans women “matter” and you want to support them. Otherwise, this is the only gaslighting, it’s coming from you.

'The judgement has been widely interpreted (on both sides) as effectively banning trans women from all spaces designated for women, and declaring that instead they must used those associated with their biological sex . This is what has incited these protests.'

So, to recap.

We have been told by you, Tandora, that no one is denying their sex. And the law around the EA 2010 has simply been clarified and not changed, so the terms woman and female always referred to biological sex and despite us being constantly and often abusively told, did not include those who were not female.

If no one was denying their sex, and single sex spaces were always only for those of that sex, what exactly is the problem with male people using male toilets ? We already know that many male people who have transgender identities use the male single sex spaces with no issue at all. They tell, their friends on MN tell us, their family tell us. So, what is the problem again?

Because it seems to me that there is some kind of dishonesty in the statement that 'no one was denying their sex'.

Perhaps the place to be protesting is the organisations that told businesses and government entities a misinterpretation of the EA in the first place. I would start with Stonewall myself.

She was the wrong sort of women I think 🤔

And I've asked them to link to their previous thread. Could someone else please?

The ONS caution you mention actually states the data underestimates trans populations due to question wording, not overestimates. Many trans people didn't feel safe disclosing in a government survey.
Even if we use your inflated 'risk' claim: 4x a near-zero risk is still near-zero. Trans women remain less likely to offend than cis men.

The census question was developed by statisticians, not activists. Your attempt to blame 'lobbyists' is just conspiracy-mongering.
By your logic, should we also distrust all census data on religion or ethnicity because 'lobbyists' advocated for those questions?

Even using disputed numbers: If trans women were hypothetically 4x more likely to offend (they're not), they'd still commit <0.1% of sex crimes given their tiny population size.
Meanwhile, 99.9% of offenders are cis men - where's your outrage about that statistical certainty?

This isn't about safety - it's about scapegoating a marginalized group while ignoring the actual threat: male violence. Stop pretending bad-faith stats justify discrimination.

I recognise that distinctive posting style. Someone that has been left shouting into the void themselves more than once.

Quite. I can't understand why third spaces are so objectionable.

I quite often have to use the disabled loo for medical reasons. Doesn't make me less of a woman. Can't see the issue with it all.

You didn’t answer the question. I agree the positive published evidence for the sexual offending rate of these men is limited by a lack of information.

Respond to this point, please. On what basis would the sexual offending rate of men who claim an identity as “women” be any different from the overall sexual offending rate of men as a sex class, in contrast with the female rate?

You’ve been asked repeatedly to clarify the commonality between women and trans women and have actively avoided answering.

Agreed - it's like saying that because I don't believe in astrology, I think that people who believe in astrology don't exist.

I don't believe that people can transition from one sex to another, but that doesn't mean that I think they don't exist.

God, the silly things you find yourself explaining in the face of daft statements by TRAs🙄

Like the 'gotcha' that the ruling that 'woman' means 'biological woman' isn't clear and categorical because it doesn't define what 'biological' means!

How remiss of that bunch of amateurs at the UK Supreme Court.. but then again, they also failed to define what 'unanimous' or 'decision' or 'court' mean, so all in all they're pretty crap at their job, aren't they, no wonder people were out protesting against their pathetic attempt at a ruling...

@Tandora you are very quick to reply to some posts.

Please can you reply to mine and share the science you were so vocal about?

"They only good TERF is a" (drawing of woman hanging)
"I. Will. Make. You. Listen"
Male aggression and threatening behaviour from men claiming to be women.....
And they want to know why women don't want them in their spaces.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14629659/amp/Signs-shame-trans-London-march-TERFs.html

Oh give it a rest.

Theres a shit ton of outrage about male violence. From women. All the time.

Thats not what we are talking about here.

From the placards even Transwomen know that predatory males are causing their community problems. However, their focus is making women accept biological males in womens spaces.

Why aren’t TRAs outraged that predatory males are posing as transwomen and making things more difficult for everyone? Where’s their outrage that transwomen feel scared to use the correct facilities due to violent men. Why is the answer to put women at risk?

Why is the answer to allow biological men into womens sports?

For anyone who wants to know the MOJ stats or what should be considered for evaluating risk of this sub group of males to show that they have a risk level not less than any other male in the UK of committing sex crime, have a read through the statistics for males who have transgender identities who commit sex crimes in the UK
Firstly, This was a question answered earlier this year:

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.

Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.

Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024
Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.

Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure

To put this into perspective with what we already knew from FOI information:

Here is data from the MoJ

Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/populationoftransgenderoffend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html

Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other

77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.

Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.

However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.

1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,

This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99.

Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.
There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time.

There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female. What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.

As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population.
And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.
I will leave you to do your own sums. And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.

By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.

The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

You are enjoying the attention, aren't you?

No one here is at all blindsided.

Sitting outside, enjoying the sunshine.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Be under no doubt, you are a shit stirer.

as I have repeatedly said to you and others, I’ve explained this any number of times on numerous mumsnet threads. Only yesterday I took significant time to do so (because someone said there were sincerely interested) and pretty much the only engagement I got was “yawn, haven’t you got anything better to do”.

If you don’t know what a trans woman is- look it up .

It's only objectionable to a very small yet highly vocal proportion of TW and TRAs. This because it's about validation that TW are women. Plus some get aroused by using women's single sex spaces, others get off on making other women uncomfortable, and others simply like to trample all over women and their hard fought for rights. Until the introduction of single sex toilets, women often did not leave the house for long periods of time.

Ah yes. ‘No evidence they are more like to sex offenders but if you want to keep them out of women’s changing rooms you would need a guard checking everyone at the door because they are going to ignore the law and women’s boundaries and force themselves into spaces where women and girls undress’

I'm just saying one problem is solved but it's created another one. What is the answer? How will anyone know who is a trans man and who isn't? How will they prove it? If this is all about women's safety then surely this should be considered rather than all the focus being on trans women?

You always answer with platitudes about prejudice/discrimination then go on the attack with patronising insults like "educate yourself" instead of answering frankly and openly the questions posters are asking you.

You are a political meme saying slogans but never entering into a full discussion

Can I point out that Anne Fausto-Sterling is a charlatan and the 1.7% of people are intersex statistic is weapons-grade, oceangoing bollocks.

By refusing to accept that women have a right to object to man in what should be a single sex female only space?

By pushing women into a sub-set of their own sex class and telling them it is so men can be counted as the more important sub-set?

It’s true though. By their very definition they are men. By their behaviour over the years they have lost many of us as supporters.

I started off many moons ago thinking TWAW out of sympathy (because logic has fuck all to do with this anti science industrial level bilge), but by 2016 had been peaked by them to the point where I thought I could never peak again. But I was wrong, every time TW do stupid male shit to prove how womanly they are (like posing with a sword in the women’s loos) I peak afuckinggain. Unbelievable.

So please stop with your lectures about poor TW. No actions towards them have been half as degrading, belittling or threatening as their behaviour towards women.

And I have no idea how you can even mention stereotypes in the same post as trying to persuade us TWAW 😂😂😂

We know what a transwoman is. Do you?

Just in case you do not, it is a biological man. At the most basic level, there is no commonality with a biological woman.

Also, please link to your other thread as I'd love to read it. Thank you.

Indeed. If you are male and you knowingly and actively breach a stated boundary of women and girls, you are inherently predatory. If you are a woman and you think you can consent on behalf of all women, you enable predation. There's no way round it.