Suicide rates and being spoken out of existence

[crunchynuts12345]

A lot of transwomen / people unfortunately won't survive this. Feeling like you're being legislated or spoken out of existence, especially when you're already part of a group at such high risk for mental health struggles and suicide, is devastating. It’s not just policy or rhetoric — it’s lived impact. Much like the way the awful section 28 law impacted gays - every time identity is debated like it’s theoretical or optional, it chips away at a person's sense of worth. It's so sad. You’re not welcome, not valid, not safe — can hit deep

I will not take on guilt or a sense of moral responsibility for the actions of people who can't cope with scientific fact. I can't control what they do with their lives, just as they can't control what I know to be true. People need to work on accepting themselves as they are instead of chasing 'affirmation' from the masses.

People exist in infinite variation. Nothing and no-one is stopping that. It's not speaking someone out of existence to refuse to lie to make someone feel better about themselves.

every time identity is debated like it’s theoretical or optional,

Like 'woman', which you render meaningless because you won't define it?

Tell me how telling gay women they are 'really' men isn't as homophobic as S28?

I'm quite sad you can't post honestly on here.

It IS about women's rights. It's not about trans people, although some vocal ones are hijacking this to centre themselves.

You know what? Ok, yes. I do feel very sorry for people with gender dysphoria. It must be a horrid condition to suffer from, feeling so wrong in your own body.

The answer is not to ask everyone else to affirm your delusions - women cannot be men, and men cannot be women.

To suggest transwomen will kill themselves because they can't access women-only facilities, smacks of male privilege and manipulation. Any decent ones would surely care about not making women feel uncomfortable. And I know there are many such. These people should have their own spaces, but not those spaces designated for women.

The law needs to reflect truth and reality. The truth and reality is that transwomen are men who want to be women, or believe they are women, or pretend to be women. But they are not women. Sometimes - the truth hurts.

But actually @crunchynuts12345 your post did make me think.

why is it women’s problem if some men suddenly decide to commit suicide, why do women need to fix it?

go on some male forum and ask them how they are supporting their fellow men.

why are you asking us?

Section 28 also claimed to be 'protecting children' by banning the ‘promotion of homosexuality’ — as if simply acknowledging that LGBTQ+ people exist was dangerous. Would you have been cheering that on in 1988? Because what’s happening now with trans women isn’t all that different.
Once again, it’s under the pretense of ‘safety’ — implying that trans women are a threat by default. And just like before, the mental health of the affected group goes to dog shit.

And ironically, it's going to hurt actual women

At least you acknowledge that ‘transwomen’ are not women. Oops how transphobic.

I agree OP. But I doubt you’ll get a sensible discussion on mumsnet. It’s a very anti-trans place and turns hostile very quickly. Unfortunately feminism on here has become very embedded with anti-trans rhetoric and I don’t think anyone can change their minds.

For a while I did get caught up thinking that ensuring women’s rights were untouched were the most important thing. But then I realised how few tans women actually take up women’s spaces. And how little trans women impact mine or my children’s lives. And how actually fighting for trans rights means fighting for a world where differences can be embraced and nurtured.

As a ND woman who has been an outsider all my life I look forward to the day everyone is allowed to take up space. As an autistic woman I am in another very high risk group for suicide, and the awful treatment I and most other ND people have received regardless of vulnerability is sad. I don’t expect those people to treat trans people any better but I really hope it changes.

A lot of transwomen / people unfortunately won't survive this.
You sound incredibly unprofessional. And lacking in knowledge of most up-to-date research and published articles on the dangers of such hyperbolic language.

Feeling like you're being legislated or spoken out of existence, especially when you're already part of a group at such high risk for mental health because of existing mental health conditions, including dysmorphia. Autism. Depression and anxiety.

It’s never about transmen is it. Funny that.
Almost like people know quite well who the women are… the actual oppressed and ignored.

Clearly you aren’t listening to women- ironic really.

This is about women’s rights, and seeing them reallocated to people who aren’t women, and told were bigots when we question that.

Every accusation you make is projection! Every one is something that TRA lobbying has been pushing for.

I have. My friends ex-DH is trans. He left her and their kids (who he can’t be arsed to see anymore) and went on to father another two kids with his “lesbian” girlfriend. He still likes using his dick you see. Does that sound like a woman to you?

Would you have the same sympathy for a group where two members are murdered every single week and that's just background noise?

Or would you carry on saying that being female or male is irrelevant to their lives and every time we talk about it, we should pretend we are talking about indefinable feelings?

But we cannot blindly believe that Crunchynuts is who s/he says s/he is. If OP is indeed a lesbian therapist, massive fail on two fronts.

@Planetmonster Not asking anyone to fix it, just asking that we speak to individuals about their lived experience if we get the opportunity as the trans community will be feeling like shit right now.

Agreed.

As a therapist, why don’t you encourage people to be proud in their trans identity, rather than pretending with them that they have actually changed sex?

What about the impact on women and girls, don't they matter.

What about their rape, murder and assault rates?

It is about women’s rights, though. It’s really disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Reading all the threads on this ruling shows that some of the women celebrating this ruling are indeed bigots like racists. I am a biological woman, spent several years working in domestic abuse refuges and on a Rape Crisis helpline, have been sexually assaulted by men many times like most women (including transwomen) and am devastated by this ruling. It does not make me feel safer, it does the opposite. I would rather me and my daughter share a bathroom with transwomen than the "shut up you men having a mantrum" type women on these threads any day of the week. Transwomen and men reading this thread, please know that so many women stand with you, including on mumsnet. And sending love to you too OP.

They’ve had a shock bless them. They were expecting it to go the same way as Tickle vs Giggle. But thankfully, it didn’t.

Such is life. Move on. Stop expecting women to be the buffers. Don’t steal disabled people’s rights to a toilet either.

Campaign for 3rd spaces / trans categories in sports etc. But that won’t happen, will it.

No point asking OP. S/he is here on ball-carrying duty.

I agree with you about how devastating the effects of your identity being erased can be...but why is it ok to do this to women?

Why is it ok to impose on me, as a woman, an identity and a definition based on gender constructs – a terrifying identity and definition that has and is used to subjugate us and is still used to oppress and kill millions of women worldwide?

I've found it deeply distressing hearing I am no longer a woman due to my biology, but must have some innate, unidetifiable essence, seemingly based in extremely disturbing gender stereotypes my mother, grandmother and many others fought and suffered to have recognised as oppressive, changeable constructs. It's terrifying, as a woman, to see the rise in misogyny, politicians, doctors, academics declaring that all these decades of struggle for women's rights are to be overthrown as we're now definied as gender traits we've fought so hard to escape.

Will my daughters now be subject to prejudice, barring thrm from stem careers because womanhood is no longer a description of sex, but an invisible essence that means they're not as good at maths or science? Will they be forced to spend their lives, as women have for generations, as carers, people pleasers, because society and authorities claim their very being is based in a gender stereotype?

Why is my identity less important than that of a trans person who insists I, as a woman, must be defined by theur inner feeling?

Why don't you care about how traumatic and terrifying this is for women?

Would you be happy for you or your daughter to share a prison cell with a man

Why do all TRAs come after women to be understanding and supportive. Why don’t they ever seem to ask this of men?
Why are we turned into handmaidens?

I am a biological woman
What does this mean @mswales ? You are a biological adult of either sex? That applies to everyone.

whats the point in speaking to individuals about their lived experience? This result from the courts is what is needed by women & girls primarily for safeguarding - the majority of TW won’t hurt us in women’s spaces but a minority would like the chance to. Which is why we need safeguarding. As a counsellor do you disagree with this?