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Suicide rates and being spoken out of existence

311 replies

crunchynuts12345 · 19/04/2025 21:59

A lot of transwomen / people unfortunately won't survive this. Feeling like you're being legislated or spoken out of existence, especially when you're already part of a group at such high risk for mental health struggles and suicide, is devastating. It’s not just policy or rhetoric — it’s lived impact. Much like the way the awful section 28 law impacted gays - every time identity is debated like it’s theoretical or optional, it chips away at a person's sense of worth. It's so sad. You’re not welcome, not valid, not safe — can hit deep

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 23/04/2025 06:05

Helleofabore · 22/04/2025 08:40

Are you genuinely asking?

Maybe you don’t remember when Stonewall announced they were switching from LGB and they added the T and made it the centre of their campaign. I say centre because they turned even the definitions for same sex attracted to focus on people with transgender identities.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/16/stonewall-start-campaigning-trans-equality

Then stonewall used their built up and incredibly well earned reputation to ensure organisations around the UK including the government and public service also centred that group. They gave out misinterpreted policy guidance based on their desired interpretation of the laws. And even when shown in court that these interpretations were flawed, they refused to take ownership of the damage they wrought.

And so now we have schools, hospitals, prisons, sports, businesses all with policies that cause harm to women and children because they followed that advice.

It isn’t just because they were part of the worldwide strategy that forced open the very meaning of the words woman, girl, female, man, boy and male. But that has played a large part in it all. If you force through society, education, governments the new language, the rest was supposed to fall into place. If you say the additional privileges being demanded by male people with transgender identities are just like the rightful, and righteous, rights of same sex and both sex attracted people, that gets you a very long way.

It certainly didn’t start with Stonewall. But in the UK, they gave it the power boost the initial campaign groups needed. Here are some documents that show just how language was used and how this has leveraged other groups to achieve it all.

In case you want to read these documents, here they are:

You can find the Dentons report through this link .

https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/iglyov3-1.pdf

This is the link for the Messaging Guide : Transgender Youth and the Freedom to Be Ourselves
From December 2021 (sorry about the messy link)

static1.squarespace.com/static/5fd0f29d0d626c5fb471be74/t/61b13d00236e2f7f2dbb9a36/1639005441624/Transgender+Youth+and+the+Freedom+to+Be+Ourselves.pdf

The Transgender Law Center’s work.

This link also shows a 'playbook' on how to leverage other social justice issues to manipulate people into supporting beliefs not upheld with any factual or scientific evidence at all. In fact, in this link above, the general population are called 'persuadables'. They are not hiding that this is pure emotional manipulation.

And finally, here is something similar from the UK Greens. Just in case people still doubt that there is an emotionally manipulative tactic being used across the world. This one gives people stock answers that they believe will work to either shame people into agreeing with them or that they feel will be 'convincing'.

https://lgbtiqa.greenparty.org.uk/2023/06/15/dogwhistle-guidance/

it is in archive sites if you want to track it down.

Edited

Sorry @Firefly1987 . This was for you. With the current issue MNHQ is having (the ‘there has been an unexpected error’) you post got detached from the quote.

SweetChilliGirl · 23/04/2025 06:13

"That would be offensive and trivialise a minority identity."

I honestly can't believe you wrote that with a straight face Or that you can claim this isn't about women's rights.

Keirawr · 23/04/2025 06:50

Has anyone figured out how you speak something out of existence?

It’s almost like it wasn’t real in the first place.

Who’d have thunk it.

Punzel · 23/04/2025 15:55

0.14 % of Jews living in Nazi occupied territories in 1941/42 committed suicide.
If trans people have a high suicide rate, and I sincerely hope they do not, it is not because they are being “spoken out of existence”, or feel they are.

BundleBoogie · 23/04/2025 17:29

Keirawr · 23/04/2025 06:50

Has anyone figured out how you speak something out of existence?

It’s almost like it wasn’t real in the first place.

Who’d have thunk it.

Good point.

So OP has unintentionally revealed that he or she understands that trans is not about material reality as no amount of speaking will ever negate the existence of something real like an apple for example.

I was thinking about it today and we still have no actual definition of ‘gender’ (other than a selection of sex stereotypes), much less gender identity. We’re never going to get one are we?

crunchynuts12345 · 25/04/2025 11:55

I sort of get it.
I think for a lot of lesbians, the pain of the fight has gone unprocessed (those who were around during section 28 etc) and, sadly, it’s sometimes being transferred onto trans women. ie, trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on? I'm reflecting on all of this and wondering how many people on here are lesbians. I sort of get where some of the tension comes from.

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 12:03

crunchynuts12345 · 25/04/2025 11:55

I sort of get it.
I think for a lot of lesbians, the pain of the fight has gone unprocessed (those who were around during section 28 etc) and, sadly, it’s sometimes being transferred onto trans women. ie, trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on? I'm reflecting on all of this and wondering how many people on here are lesbians. I sort of get where some of the tension comes from.

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

Why should any lesbian tolerate any male person entering their spaces? This is homophobic.

TheKeatingFive · 25/04/2025 12:04

crunchynuts12345 · 25/04/2025 11:55

I sort of get it.
I think for a lot of lesbians, the pain of the fight has gone unprocessed (those who were around during section 28 etc) and, sadly, it’s sometimes being transferred onto trans women. ie, trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on? I'm reflecting on all of this and wondering how many people on here are lesbians. I sort of get where some of the tension comes from.

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

No one is 'hating on' anyone, but why should women tolerate men in their single sex spaces?

SaveMeFromHumanity · 25/04/2025 12:09

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

Well, I don't 'hate on' anyone.

I'm straight but I do have several lesbian friends. One has some sympathy with transmen but most have a problem with the whole movement for the same reason I do.

I've taken this from a post I put on another thread. It was early so it's probably not very clear but 🤷🏻‍♀️

And, as many people have said before, we've knowingly been using the loos alongside transwomen for years and most people didn't give it much thought as long as people were respectful. Its only been in the last 10 years that we've had a situation where we've had to pretend they were actually women and they have been allowed to have us kicked out of women's spaces or denied medical treatment or made criminals or sacked for recognising that they are male.

And had the language around womenhood (chestfeeding, pregnant people, cervix havers) changed. Along with the complete fetishisation of womanhood.

Alongside, the invasion of women's sports and the nonsense of people being encouraged and permitted to change their birth sex on legal documents and by the NHS which has resulted in ridiculous situations and death (TW demanding nurses perform smear tests on them despite not having a vagina or a cervix and a transman who died because she had registered as male and the hospital had treated her as such. This meant that they made the wrong diagnosis - via blood tests - and she didn't get the treatment she needed).

NHS hospitals that have changed the zebra crossings, which are black and white and easy to see for visually impaired people to rainbow striped ones, which aren't. Police dancing at Pride festivals and pretending they haven't seen male violence if it's committed by the right sort of man whilst visiting women who have used the wrong words.

People conflating LGB issues, which are about sexuality, with T+ issues which are about identify, which means that members of the LGB community have been negatively impacted by the trans demands because some people lump them all together. Or the T issues not being dealt with appropriately because, "This is just like people's attitude towards gay rights in the 80s," when it's completely different. And when the LGB Alliance was set up to prioritise the LGB without the T, the T went for them too. We've all read about the 'Cotton Ceiling' and language calling lesbians (never gay men) 'genital fetishists'. Young lesbians being coerced into having sex with transwomen with a penis for fear of being seen as 'exclusionary'.

The poor woman who was told they couldn't have been raped because she was on a women's ward and there were no men on there. When she knew she'd been raped and a year later it turned out that one of the women was a special new with a penis woman rather than be suppprted as a rape victim. Or women in courts who've had to refer to their rapist as 'she'.

Or just general basic safeguarding requirements being ignored if the person breaking them was a transwoman or if a child said they were trans. Schools that were encouraged to socially transition children and not tell their parents (for safeguarding reasons in case their parents were TERFs). Parents who only found out their daughter was now their 'son' when they received the end of year report or went to parents evening - as per the DfE guidance at the time.

The whole movement was damaging to all women. Not any one individual transwoman who just wanted to get on with their life quietly whilst wearing a dress.

And, tbh, they're just as much a victim of the 'movement' that claimed to represent them too.

Edited for formatting
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SaveMeFromHumanity · 25/04/2025 12:27

but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on?

Because according to TRAs correctly identifying someone sex is a hate crime.

And men can become very aggressive when women say no to them.

And women who have trive to have that very polite exchange have been kicked.off lesbian dating apps.

Snorlaxo · 25/04/2025 12:43

*but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on?

If a woman would date a transwoman then she’d be identifying as pan sexual rather than lesbian but we are at a point where everybody is supposed to pretend that TWAW. Trans ideology says that rejecting someone based on their genitals or biological sex is transphobic.

If you’ve never been scared of telling a man something because you fear his reaction then you are very lucky and in a minority of women. Many are even scared to text and block.

Iheartmysmart · 25/04/2025 12:45

What have trans women done to us. Well let’s think, they’ve taken away our single sex spaces, they’ve taken our sports, our awards, our right to be safe in hospitals and - god forbid - prisons, they’ve raped and abused us and pretty much taken away our identity and right to exist.

What have trans women done for us, well that would be fuck all.

spannasaurus · 25/04/2025 12:52

SaveMeFromHumanity · 25/04/2025 12:27

but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on?

Because according to TRAs correctly identifying someone sex is a hate crime.

And men can become very aggressive when women say no to them.

And women who have trive to have that very polite exchange have been kicked.off lesbian dating apps.

Not just random TRAs either. Nancy Kelly was CEO of stonewall when she described lesbians who rejected transwomen as being akin to sexual racists

SaveMeFromHumanity · 25/04/2025 13:02

Iheartmysmart · 25/04/2025 12:45

What have trans women done to us. Well let’s think, they’ve taken away our single sex spaces, they’ve taken our sports, our awards, our right to be safe in hospitals and - god forbid - prisons, they’ve raped and abused us and pretty much taken away our identity and right to exist.

What have trans women done for us, well that would be fuck all.

I remember reading a comment on the feminist board a few years ago about how different it would all have been had TW identified with women instead of as women.

With the political clout of born men on our side, we could.have made great strides into improving things for women and trans alike - like maybe we would have.even addressed the issue of male violence...

But instead here they came being men, just like they always do, raping and pillaging their way to dominance.

How nice it would.have been if they'd actually behaved more like, ooh, I don't know, women.

Just imagine the society we could have created.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 13:04

crunchynuts12345 · 25/04/2025 11:55

I sort of get it.
I think for a lot of lesbians, the pain of the fight has gone unprocessed (those who were around during section 28 etc) and, sadly, it’s sometimes being transferred onto trans women. ie, trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on? I'm reflecting on all of this and wondering how many people on here are lesbians. I sort of get where some of the tension comes from.

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

Pop into TRA Reddit, give it a go and report back.

Iheartmysmart · 25/04/2025 13:08

@SaveMeFromHumanity Yes exactly but they didn’t want to identify with us. In typical male fashion, they wanted to be us and take everything from us. With force if necessary. Can’t say I know any women who behave like that.

myplace · 25/04/2025 13:23

Women spend a lot of time signalling to men that they aren’t interested. We have to avoid eye contact, avoid smiling in their direction, wear headphones, avoid starting conversations/asking directions etc. for fear of them assuming we are up for it/fancy them/open for further conversation.

A lot of the time it isn’t intended particularly aggressively, simply ‘I’m a bit bored, there’s a woman, she’ll help me pass the time.’

However the insults and glares start when you don’t play along- smile love, what’s wrong with you, lost a pound and found a penny, whore/slut/bitch etc.

Why should lesbians add another layer of ‘sorry not interested’ when men shouldn’t even be there anyway?!

BMW6 · 25/04/2025 13:40

Why would a Transwoman want to "chat up" a lesbian??

That would be the actions of a heterosexual male wouldn't it! No man can be a lesbian. Even one who has had full surgery - he'd be a heterosexual without a penis.

The vast majority of women certainly don't Hate transwomen. Its not hate when we refuse to ignore biology and play let's pretend.

When the boy in the fairy tale pointed out the Emperor was naked he didn't do it out if hate - just stating the obvious. Just as we are.

HornungTheHelpful · 25/04/2025 15:18

crunchynuts12345 · 25/04/2025 11:55

I sort of get it.
I think for a lot of lesbians, the pain of the fight has gone unprocessed (those who were around during section 28 etc) and, sadly, it’s sometimes being transferred onto trans women. ie, trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on? I'm reflecting on all of this and wondering how many people on here are lesbians. I sort of get where some of the tension comes from.

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

This is a very childish and unhelpful approach; disagreeing with someone is not "hating on them". Not wanting to share your space isn't either.

Personally I'm not hugely fussed about sharing spaces with transwomen but I do think that sex is immutable, and my thinking that is not hating on trans people. Saying it wouldn't be either.

Your approach polarises where there is no such polarisation. Most people who disagree with you don't hate. They wouldn't go out of their way to upset transwomen - I have no problem using preferred pronouns. But I don't believe that a man becomes a woman because they want to, even if they want to and has surgery/hormones to make their body resemble that of a woman. We're not on opposite sides; we just disagree on one point.

For a long time it has not been possible to say that; maybe it still isn't (but it feels more possible post-SC decision). We should be more concerned about the erosion of freedom to express this, and much, much worse things, for everyone than about whether a very small proportion of the population is being treated in a sufficiently polite way.

HornungTheHelpful · 25/04/2025 15:22

And also, I find the usual trans interpretation of "woman" highly offensive, stereotyped and simplistic (a friend's child is trans and the only problem they have is that their "daughter" dresses appallingly). Women don't like the idea that we all look and believe certain things. Again, this doesn't impact transwomen who are still perfectly free to "live" their interpretation of "woman".

popefully · 25/04/2025 15:26

Ah I see, the poster doesn't understand why lesbians don't want to repeatedly explain to members of the sex class that is responsible for nearly all sexual assaults why a female with a same-sex orientation isn't attracted to their sex.

If that was a genuine question then you need start listening to women. I'm actually assuming this poster is a GC person trying to mock the ignorance of TRAs who would come out with such ludicrous questions.

Sortumn · 25/04/2025 16:21

crunchynuts12345 · 25/04/2025 11:55

I sort of get it.
I think for a lot of lesbians, the pain of the fight has gone unprocessed (those who were around during section 28 etc) and, sadly, it’s sometimes being transferred onto trans women. ie, trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on? I'm reflecting on all of this and wondering how many people on here are lesbians. I sort of get where some of the tension comes from.

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

When I dated men I was relieved to have an engagement ring because I could say I was in a relationship rather than I wasn't interested.
It was MUCH safer by far than saying I wasn't interested.

If I was dating now, I'm not sure how safe it would always be to turn a man down on the basis I didn't want to date men? Some would be fine, some could be angry.

I think women in general (sexuality not important) have spent the majority of the thread explaining why single sex spaces sometimes matter. Often sex doesn't matter but when it matters it really matters!

I don't hate trans women or trans men or people who say they are non-binary.
Would I want to for example be in a menopause group discussing the particular issues that come with my biology around a trans woman? Absolutely not, but I probably would with a trans man as long as I didn't have to trip myself up trying to get my language right as that doesn't make for flowing conversation, but as long as it was a space where I could use female language, then fine. Would I be happy enough sharing a mixed sex space with a transwoman? Absolutely. As long as that mixed sex space wasn't one in which I was vulnerable.

MissFancyDay · 25/04/2025 18:12

crunchynuts12345 · 25/04/2025 11:55

I sort of get it.
I think for a lot of lesbians, the pain of the fight has gone unprocessed (those who were around during section 28 etc) and, sadly, it’s sometimes being transferred onto trans women. ie, trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on? I'm reflecting on all of this and wondering how many people on here are lesbians. I sort of get where some of the tension comes from.

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

For heavens sake @crunchynuts12345 it's MEN!! MEN MEN MEN

There is no hate for transwomen. Transwomen are men and we want to have single sex spaces. It's as simple as that.

All you read all the time is "I don't fear transwomen in the bathroom" well ok, I don't either particularly. But that is not the point. The point is that women NEED (some more than others) single sex spaces. And transwomen are men.

Have you got it now. I'm so sick of this.

TheOtherRaven · 25/04/2025 18:30

trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on?

are you serious? Do you really not know about all this?

Shadowsunray · 25/04/2025 18:39

TRAs have always used suicide as a threat so this is nothing new. Do what we say or else impressionable and vulnerable people will kill themselves. Well they are more likely to if you keep giving them the idea.

A sensible response from the trans community and allies would be, using the toilet matching your biological sex doesn't erase you, it doesn't make you less of a person, it doesn't change who you are. Instead they feed the fear, the fury and the despair. I know who I blame if people take their lives. And it's not the women who have fought to get our rights to privacy and dignity back.

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