To think that parents shouldn't do this on behalf of their teens?

[bumblebee1987]

I have my own dog grooming business which is very popular with people wanting work experience/part time work, largely because it is mostly a lovely job involving lots of contact with dogs and puppies, so I completely understand the appeal with young people!

However, the vast majority of work experience/part time job requests that we receive (usually a few a month, more at certain times of year around school holidays etc), come directly from parents who are searching on behalf of their children. As harsh as it sounds, these are a very kind but immediate no for us. The competition for these placements is high, and I want to hear directly from the teenagers themselves, not their parents. It's great that your 15/16/17 year old is passionate about animals, but I want to hear that from them. I know that this isn't a high flying business, it is just a dog groomers, but it is my business that I have worked hard to establish and I want to know that anyone who I have come in and represent us, wants to be there, and they aren't just there because their parent wants them to be there. If you want me to spend my time replying and arranging a placement etc (which I am more than happy to do, but it IS extra work for me!), then I don't think it is too much to ask that a teen contacts me themselves? I know that teens have to do work experience and that the vast majority of them probably won't end up working in the sort of place where they do their placement, but a little bit of interest wouldn't go amiss, it's a good skill to learn, we dont all land our dream job from day one 🤣

Is this common across the board? I'm 38, but I feel like when I was younger, we were encouraged to do this sort of thing ourselves? I understand it more if it's a work experience placement that is arranged through school, perhaps schools are encouraging parents to seek the placements, I don't know? However if you are searching for paid part time work, surely this has to come from the applicant directly?

I appreciate that perhaps some of the applicants have SEN, but as a SEN parent myself, I would encourage my child to reach out to businesses themselves and would have a hand in guiding them. It's totally fine for parents to help, SEN or not, these are young people and the world of work is new to them, but a bit of independence is important isn't it? I absolutely love hearing from passionate young people directly, I love my job, and am always really happy to spend time speaking to young people about how to get into my industry and opportunities etc, but I want to speak to them! Email, Facebook message, website contact form enquiry, I don't care, you don't need to pick up the phone (I myself have phone anxiety, I totally get it!), but I want to know that you actually want to spend time in my business and are interested!

Maybe I'm being harsh and should review my policy of automatically saying no unless it has come from the young person directly?!

YABU- It's perfectly fine for parents to apply
YANBU- At 15/16/17, teens should be applying themselves.

Exactly, and you can’t tell if someone would be good at it based on an email.

We had a fish shop near us who put an advert out for a young person and specified that enquiries from parents wouldn't be considered.

But if they’ve written you an email you can then invite them in for an interview. It’s just the first step.

Ffs can't you understand the basic premise that any application for a job. The first contact IS Important. No matter If it's a Saturday job at 14 or a Ceo position at 49. First impressions matter. It doesn't matter whether you would be good or not. First impressions matter.

A keen 15 year old messaging showing interest vs mummy messaging on behalf of her special boy. I do not get how you fail to understand this

This just makes me angry and worried about the future of society.

I was 13 when I first enquired a business about paid work and started doing it. Parents never even knew what jobs I was doing half the time, of course, shock horror, I also managed my own schedule, deadlines, transport to and from, a bank account/ getting paid.

With uni, I don't think my parents even knew where I applied until I announced where I was going and when.

I thought kids were apparently growing up faster, better with technology and achieving higher academic levels earlier in this day and age? What happened?

Back in the 2000s, someone's parents contacting a workplace would have been completely unthinkable and embarrassing for the kid.

I reply very kindly to every email, regardless of who it has come from. I have never not replied, and I always offer support where I can. I have reached out to other businesses that I know who may be able to help if I can't, and I always offer to chat to the person/parent further if I can be any help with offering advice about how to get into my industry and often offer an afternoon of work shadowing even if I can't actually offer work experience.

I am so sorry that your daughter has experienced this, it is a huge bug bear of mine that people would leave applicants hanging like that, it's such a confidence knock. I would hazard a guess that it's just because they are busy, but it doesn't make it right. Sadly, due to insurance, it is becoming increasingly more costly to offer work experience, and I think with the cost of everything lately, small businesses just can't afford to do it. Our insurance is up for renewal soon and it is something we're going to have to seriously consider 😔

This has been an interesting thread. My instinct is to 100% agree with OP that the young person must go in themselves (write in/research/whatever) and certainly 14 year old DS has just secured himself a paper round this way with zero input from me.

But the comments about social capital are really very interesting and I hadn't considered that previously. We used to be members at our local (ridiculously over priced) David Lloyd gym, and we used to go regularly with another family whose children did swimming lessons with ours. I remember the other mum and I discussing once how one of the benefits was that it felt like quite a safe and comfortable environment to teach our children skills like ordering for themselves, paying etc. They'd go up to the counter and order their food or a drink, or go from the cafe to the soft play without supervision. But we were both very conscious that we could do this because the nature of the environment meant that staff were accomodating and also that it wasn't as crowded and busy (and we didn't let the DC do the ordering etc when it was as they WERE slower). So they had that opportunity really early to learn things tha tmight be harder..... because we had money to avoid a place like David Lloyd. Obviously, being a member at a gym like that is not the ONLY way children gain these skills but I think it's not an unreasonable point that chlidren from middle class families with educated parents etc etc are more likely to learn these skills.

DS1 went the other way. His email requesting a work experience placement was about 5 paragraphs long and full of professions of how very very keen he was to have a career in this field, how great he thought the company was, his sterling qualities and fitness for a placement etc. I held my tongue, but secretly felt sorry for whoever's inbox it landed in, and wondered if all the teens' emails were similar!

He got his placement, mind you.

“ If I don't know in advance that you struggle with loud noises or communication etc, please tell me how I am supposed to arrange my work to best suit your needs? Which I absolutely will, and have, but HOW can I if I don't know what you need?”

First, I never said you should not know anything in advance of the person starting work experience, I said you should not be immediately binning all applications or enquiries that are from a parent- which is your process that you are defending- because it is discriminatory. I said you are unreasonable to expect the initial/first contact to include all the personal information on SEN disabilities and accommodations. That should be later in the process.

“how would you deal with all of the applications?”
I would set up a fair and transparent process that wasn’t based on arbitrary and discriminatory things like no parental support allowed. Have an application you send out that collects information like school courses, experience working with dogs including as pets, how will they get to work, what is their availability.

“despite the obvious contempt you have for my job, which you clearly think is utter shit,”
I think your job is great, I have contempt for how your process is designed to select either the kids that are perfectly abled & independent or that you were fooled into thinking they are because mummy faked an email from them.

I love this!!! I would have been overjoyed with his email 😁

@LoremIpsumCici I think you're being unfair. There's a huge difference between offering work experience, which is basically something employers do to help local teens in the community, and that ultimately costs them money for very little value (let's be honest - these WE placements don't lead to the business suddenly getting more work or finding a way to save loads of costs), and an employer advertising for a specific role which requires specific skills.

If you are asking local businesses to basically do you a favour, I don't think it's unreasonable to be expected to be clear on what will be required for any accomodations etc, including in the application process.

I would set up a fair and transparent process that wasn’t based on arbitrary and discriminatory things like no parental support allowed. Have an application you send out that collects information like school courses, experience working with dogs including as pets, how will they get to work, what is their availability.

This is also the point - OP is NOT requesting applications. She is receiving, spontaneously, people asking her if she would consider work experience placements in her business.

And the reality is that in the case of a disabled applicant for a specific job who has the skills for the job but not necessarily for sending an email or whatever, it would be completely normal for them to receive help but for that email to STILL come from their inbox etc. Which OP has said, repeatedly, would be fine. She accepts parents may well be helping to draft the email or whatever, she just wants it to at least appear to come from the applicant themselves.

I like the sound of your son

I think OP is more than reasonable. You either write on your own behalf or if you need help with that initial contact then the person helping (probably the parent) explains that.
@LoremIpsumCici Do you really think the OP should engage with every request and how far down the line do you give the information about why you are contacting on behalf of your child? You've been pretty rude to the OP and about her job.

You're literally getting free labour and the chance to do something for a young person.

No so long ago? The school leaving age was raised to 16 in 1972.

Hardly the Dark Ages.

And of course the nature of adolescence has changed since then.

Yes, but why? Why are teenagers today so much less capable than they used to be? Or could they be equally capable if they were given the opportunity, but they are so helicoptered and mollycoddled they never have a chance? Like (just one example) all the mothers who post here asking what their DC should take on their DofE expedition, which totally defeats the object of the expedition.

I don’t agree with this. My own ds has ASD and would have hated to reach out for work experience etc. I sat down with him and helped him write emails. There is absolutely no need for the parent to send the email from their own account. Even if you write the entire thing yourself with zero input from the child, it’s pretty easy to send it from the child’s email.

I understand it alright, I just completely disagree with the value judgements being made that are discriminatory towards kids that require social support.

Great, another parent that is being forced to fake an email from their disabled DC to get past a discriminatory employment process so they get an equal chance at being considered for a work placement or job.

And you think that’s how the world should work instead of, I don’t know, dropping the ableist view that says if the email doesn’t appear to have come from the child then it’s straight to the bin because that means the child is shit.

But how would a form automatically help children with additional needs? My son has ASD, ADHD and DCD, he was out of school entirely for two years and barely left his bedroom. If someone sent him a form to complete asking questions about achievements and interests, until very recently, he had none and he was a shell of himself. So if he completed a form, and say my daughter completed a form, based on what was in the form, my daughter would get the work experience. Same if they were invited for a phone conversation, my daughter would chat your ear off, my son wouldn't speak. However, if the parent of a child like my son contacted me and asked of we could accommodate him, I absolutely would, because my son deserves the same opportunities as my daughter does, and it isn't his fault that he isn't able to communicate in the way that she is. However, they would be two entirely different placements, because they would need to be. My son cannot cope in my place of work unless it is calm and I have predictable, quiet dogs, whereas my daughter couldn't care less, the louder and more energetic the dogs, the happier she is.

I will ALWAYS reply, to every email. I am kind to everyone, and I will always offer support if I can and advice about where else to approach if they haven't already, or further career advice if they would like it. However, short of replying and asking why the parent has emailed and not the child (which as you have rightly pointed out, is not my place to do), I'm not really sure how else I can fairly offer placements. I have VERY few placements to give, but I am very keen to offer placements to children like my son, if I know, I know how discrimination feels, he has experienced it his whole life.

I feel like you are deliberately trying to make me out to be some sort of monster and I really don't think I am? I offer work experience placements because I want to be helpful, not because I have to, I am literally a sole trader, I dont even have time to pee most days. The fact is, I work long hours, and get a lot of interest in the very limited placements that I can offer, I simply do not have the time to screen everyone in the way that a large company can. I am HR, accounts, maintenence, etc all rolled into one person! I am not demanding that anyone disclose medical information to me, at all, but if a parent is able to discuss with me how we could make a placement work for their child then I absolutely will do what I can, and have. My set up is tiny, my resources are scarce, but I will always do what I can.

No. This type of placement costs money and takes time. It is in no way free labour. It IS doing something good for a young person but she is a sole trader, not bloody Amazon. The time she takes teaching these young people comes out of the money she takes home. Plus, she is actually willing to do it, the majority of micro businesses are not! Good god, what do people want? All she is asking is that young people apply for themselves rather than their parents!??!

With all due respect, I am absolutely not getting free labour. The way I structure my work experience placement weeks literally costs me money, because I have to significantly slow down the pace of my work and take significant time explaining and mentoring. I am literally doing it solely to do something that may be helpful for local teens.

I am not convinced any work placements of the sort we're talking about here involve any real benefit for the business beyond feeling good they are helping their local community. It takes time and effort to figure out what these teens will do during this time, time and effort ot prepare for it and to then offer them the training etc. And that assumes they're all highly competent who will pick it up quickly.

My reply at 11:36 was to you but for some reason the comment I was replying to wasn't copied.

@Gazelda my DC's school has stopped even running a work experience week. I reckon it just got too hard for students to find somewhere. The "leafier" comp up the road still does it - I imagine parents have more connections they can flex and perhaps can help their DC more. It's just really hard to find these days. The lack of replies for your DD must be so frustrating. We had a good hit rate with care homes. Less glamorous than some other sectors but 16 year olds aren't allowed to do any personal care, it's a quiet environment, often welcoming and not fast paced.

@crackofdoom advice from my DC's (other) school was keep the approach email very short so as not to take up too much of the recipient's time. So no they're definitely not all like that! Good to hear that either approach can work though, well done to him. There is never one rule to suit all.

@LoremIpsumCici I think you've misrepresented OP and are way off the mark. Also you are not understanding the "contract" of work experience, which starts with the people asking for the massive favour to be extremely polite and considerate to the person of whom they are asking said massive favour. My son has a 1:1 at school. Work experience needs to look different for him to meet his needs. It needs a much more politic approach from me than sending scattergun emails neglecting to mention his needs then crying discrimination.

But how would a form automatically help children with additional needs?
You'd be hiring based on more than did the email come from the child’s account and did I personally like what was said, regardless of whether they wrote & sent it or mummy faked it. You would not be binning the honest applicants where the email came from a parent because the child needs some social support to do the email and likely complete the form.

However, short of replying and asking why the parent has emailed and not the child (which as you have rightly pointed out, is not my place to do)

I never said that.

I feel like you are deliberately trying to make me out to be some sort of monster and I really don't think I am

I don’t think you are a monster, you seem to be mistaking my criticism of your hiring process for a personal attack. You asked directly if anyone thought you were being unreasonable for using this hiring practice. Don’t ask the question if you aren’t prepared to hear criticism of it.

I have VERY few placements to give, but I am very keen to offer placements to children like my son, if I know, I know how discrimination feels, he has experienced it his whole life.

This is great to read, perhaps after thinking about how you would feel if it were your son trying to get a work placement or pt job and you had to fake the initial email to look as if he had done it or he would be automatically eliminated from consideration…how would it make him feel to know that you helping him is a shameful thing that has to be lied about?