To think I can't be the only person who doesn't know a single trans person

[VioletSpeedwell]

Seriously.

The news is full of people worrying about how the SC ruling will affect people who identify as trans.

Where are they? Not in my office (large organisation), my family or social groups. I don't come across any in the village where I live or when I go into town.

DD is at university and doesn't know any trans people.

Surely, I can't be the only one?

Oh, but I thought you could just Google it...? Why don't you do what you advised and tell us what it tells you? Go on, it's very easy... I'll wait...

🤔

And a disproportionate number of those ‘awful men’ wear dresses and call themselves ladies

In a local election here a few years ago a number of the people running had issues to do with trans people high on their agenda. Apparently we were to fear the influx of them (nope, I don’t know any either op, was served by one once in a book shop a and we had a very nice chat about Enid Blyton books) At the time our an and e was in danger of shutting, loads of local businesses were shutting, there was homelessness and there were teams of idiot teens on scooters terrorising people in the park. People’s priorities are ridiculous.

I mean, this kind of shit about young women - "let herself go", "physically unattractive", might explain why some young women would desperately like to escape this kind of nastiness and be a man, whose value isn't entirely based on what they look like.

If you look at the Scottish data which is expected to be more accurate then it is about 1 in 250. Either way that number is likely to be over estimating rather than under.

And the point that most people don’t have regular interactions with that many people still stands. It wouldn’t be uncommon not to know anyone.

He was buff tbh. My mates a woman and has hands like shovels, I have size 7.5 feet and quite broad shoulders and a pretty straight up and down athletic figure. We aren't all petite little things you know. My sils husband is about 5'5" if that, shorter than me with smaller hands and feet. That's what I hate about these type of discussions the picking apart of appearances and the expectation that we all conform to this stereotypical view of what is feminine and what is masculine.

Blokes. Manspreading.

Couldn't agree more. Nasty, inane comment.

You no what, it’s actually not rocket science. A man occasionally wearing women’s clothing isn’t transgender… they still ‘identify’ as a man, they aren’t even claiming to be a woman. So they’re not trans or even claiming to be, can you understand? Whether you think trans women are women or men, this statement was just basic bloody common sense. If you can’t comprehend that then there isn’t much point in saying much more than google it. You can easily make intelligent arguments about trans women actually being men because you can’t change your DNA, but that’s not what’s happening on this thread, people are just being thick for the sake of it.

well
a) "know" is subjective - Current estimate of the trans population is about 0.5% of the UK population (and that might be slightly too high), so on average you would need to "know" 200 people before you "knew" one trans person, and of course that is only an average.

b) Someone you "know of" but not "know well" (your postie, the cashier at your corner shop, your hairdresser, or even someone you think you know quite well (colleague, someone you chat to at an exercise class) may very well be trans without you knowing.

The party line on MN is that very few trans people 'pass' convincingly and it is almost always possible to tell immediately but that isn't always the case - some trans men, for example, once they've started taking testosterone, can pass for male completely convincingly. Often the main 'giveaway' is height, but of course you can have short men, and some transmen were tall women before they transitioned, so are then average height men. I used to work with a trans man and absolutely none of us had the slightest clue that he wasn't born male until he came out as trans.

It also works the other way - a woman was interviewed on Shelagh Fogerty's LBC show yesterday after the ruling who said she (despite NOT being trans), has been repeatedly questioned about why she is in the women's facilities just because she is tall with short hair.

This is the concern I have with the 'of course trans men are welcome in female toilets/hospital wards, etc' argument - I can imagine said tall(ish), hairy colleague with a deep voice and beard would be as (maybe even more at first glance) offputting to the average women not expecting to see him there than a fairly well passing transwoman (say Hunter Schafer, for example).

Adding to my original post: I worked closely with 4 (yes 4!) women that were previously lesbians quietly getting on with their lives.

This movement kicked off and snowballed: they all (yes, all of them ) turned into angry, ranty , completely intolerant "non binary" "they/thems" around the same time. They went from being just another employee (who happened to be gay) to a special class of person who harshly jumped on anyone they perceived to be showing "micro aggressions" or "misgendering" (I overheard one such "misgendering" and it was so obviously completely accidental ) well I say misgendering the person referred to them as "she" (which of course they are factually). They/them does not slip off the tongue for most people. It sounds like you're talking about multiples.

Anyway, so I'd take a trans person in the office (male or female) over a "non binary" person anyday - for my reasons above.

I think most people are generally tolerant and try to respect these newer ways of self referencing. But ultimately it has to work both ways.

oh we can tell. I notice men aren’t as good as spotting a bloke in a frock. I suspect women have evolved to be more attuned to sex differences because our lives literally depend on it.

I have a trans man extended family member. He does pass but doesn’t seem to have any male friends. He transitioned as an adult before the more recent uptick and when he was younger, he would bind his chest and wear baggy sweats. It seems to be a successful transition with no regrets.

There is someone in DD’s old class at school who is now a trans man. People were more surprised as in his former life, he was more feminine presenting than his female social cohort. He also had a lot of psychological problems as well that the school needed to manage. I am not sure how that is playing out as DD is no longer in touch.

Some of DD’s friends experimented with being “non-binary” and changing their names and dying their hair blue, purple etc. I have seen on SM their parents posting ASD related content so suspect that ASD is a factor in those cases too.

But no, you said wearing a dress occasionally doesn't make someone trans. But... Why not? Why does a trans woman have to wear "women's" clothing in order to be trans? Why can't they wear a dress only occasionally?

Surely being trans isn't solely about clothes?

As well as my trans daughter, UK based I know personally 4 other people with children with transgender identity. I know of friends or colleagues who have 3 other trans identifying young people in their families. I know 2 local shop workers who are trans, a trans TA at our local primary, and a trans teacher at my DC's secondary school. Middle class suburb.
None are radical transactivist types.

In my wider circles I know:

Two young women identifying as men, having had classic ROGD in their teens, coinciding with autistic traits, family dysfunction and a lot of time on Tumblr. Mastectomies, hormones, difficulties adjusting to adult life.

A TM who passes pretty well if you're not looking out for it, I don't know their personal history, but it took me a while to realise by chance, then it clicked. Pleasant, competent, ironically in a very female-heavy occupation. Slightly ahead of the trend, age-wise.

A very obvious looking and heterosexual TW who apparently isn't an activist for all this, and seems pleasant enough.

A man who I believe is identifying as some really complicated and pretentious flavour of non-binary, but basically looks like a very weird fetishistic cross-dresser. Also, a massive TRA. Was widely avoided until his trans epiphany, at which point several useful idiots in his circle started deferring to him as some kind of guru. I believe he is heterosexual, though prefers vulnerable young women who consider themselves non-binary/male.

Another man who identifies as non-binary, but simply comes across as a pleasant, polite, if neurotic, gay man with a taste for nail varnish and loud patterns.

A quiet, slightly tomboyish/punk looking young woman who identifies as they/them for reasons unclear.

More worryingly, I do see cross-dressers out an about, you know, the unhinged looking sort, and I realise "we used to call that being a cross-dresser, but are they now considering themselves women and expecting to use women's facilities?". Hopefully not anymore.

The ones I meet are a bit like the vegan stereotype you don't have to guess they will absolutely tell you 😉

It's the impact on women, a large number, rather than the low number of trans.

I teach 136 students across a week. 11 of them are non binary or trans. That's quite a %

From experience, several of them won't be non binary or trans when I see them again after the summer

I don’t know any trans women, but I know two trans men. Both have presented as male from a very young age and looked like boys before puberty.

I know two trans women and one non-binary person. All in their early twenties.

I’m a lecturer and teach four trans people currently, all f-t-m. All of them are also neuro diverse in some way. We have (absolutely stinking) gender neutral toilets throughout campus.

Well, they were moderately attractive girls 4 years ago so I don't know what has happened. They seem to have given up. One especially.

I find it very very sad.

There's 2 at my work, 3 I see regularly locally but don't know and 2 dads of DC we know. Do you live in a very rural area? Maybe it's more prevalent in urban areas.

I think you're confused. It's transphobic to gatekeep. Someone is transgender if they say they are.