To think if your child ends up violent or criminal, it is partly your fault?

[TheTaupeMoose]

Parenting does matter, sorry.

What went wrong with their upbringing that they can act without moral compass if they can get away with it.

Are people’s moral compass wholly determined by parents attitudes? Surely most people can tell the difference between right and wrong?

We don’t do anyone any favours by placing responsibility further and further away from individuals.

I think this too. It's not a black-and-white thing - it's more than clear that the issues are complex and nuanced - but no matter how hard someone was pushed, in the end their actions are almost always their responsibility and the exceptions are so extreme they can't really be counted.

The difficult thing is encouraging the mindset where people do take that responsibility. It is hard when someone genuinely doesn't see their role in events, or puts the blame entirely on others.

Im not sure there is a solution tbh, with the way things are.

I can't help thinking that taking responsibility even when it's hard is not modelled by the overall culture in the UK society. The number of children who grow up seeing their fathers walk away because involved and responsible parenting is too hard work is grim.

I can assure you we had the same upbringing, no favourites. My mum was left a widow when I was 4, she did her best for both of us, she worked 3 jobs to ensure we ate and were clothed. Our grandma had a huge part in our life and treated all the grandchildren the same too.

My sibling made choices in life that sent them on a downward spiral. These choices are to blame for their trouble not their parent.

Of course everyone should take responsibility but when we're talking about children and teenagers, things are different due to brain development, impulsivity, maturity and so on.

It's why we have age restrictions on sex, alcohol, smoking, voting because its researched and understood that children and teenagers have reduced impulse control and critical thinking.

yes, I was talking about adults admittedly. Given the brain-rewiring in adolescence the situation is slightly different for teens.

What a silly, goady post. Nobody thinks that parenting doesn't matter. Everybody knows that poor parenting is one of the main factors that can lead to bad behaviour. Everybody also knows that other external and societal factors can cause it (combined with or independently of poor parenting). Saying 'sorry' in your OP as though you're somehow pointing out an unwelcome new fact makes you sound ridiculous.

Yet they ignored him buying crossbows and knives off the Internet and him illegally leaving the house with them. So there was a level of acceptance of criminal and dangerous behaviour. In Louise's reasons for ending the relationship with Clifford, she described his family as a mess and talked about Clifford's father's anger issues.

We know Domestic abuse and growing up with anger, does change empathy, especially in boys. There's many 'normal' and 'respectful on paper' posters across here, who won't give up their lifestyles to protect their children's MH. Instead they live with and carry on having babies to abusive men.
I think Clifford is probably a good example of parenting and the outside influence of the likes of Tate and general society. There's too many murders of women for ending their relationship for it not to be outside influences.

I have known these people since 1991. As you will see if you read my post more carefully, I do not put my PIL on a pedestal. I think they were/are averagely poor parents in the sense of having more children than they could afford, financially or emotionally, much like many of their generation (contraception was illegal in most circumstances), and like my own parents. But if that were the key criterion for criminality, poverty and lack of emotional attunement, several generations would be overwhelmingly criminal. The same circumstances land differently on different people, clearly.

The points you make don't matter much. What matters is how the family dynamics were up until the child is maybe 6 or 7. A lot will have been set in stone by then. Not if they went on holiday, but if the parents managed to create safety for each child and the child could attach securely. It also matters which role each child was given in the family. It's weird to think you have any idea on that just looking in from the outside years later and from how the family presented to YOU ever since you have known them. Each experience will be individual.

It’s virtually impossible to treat two individuals ‘exactly the same’ as much as we would like to believe this.

Everyone holds a level of subconscious bias, whether this is a parent finding one child easier to manage due to personality etc and so responding to them slightly differently etc

As I mentioned in my post, children as individuals will also respond to the same stimuli or situation differently depending on resilience etc

Your mother working 3 jobs may have made her somewhat absent from yours and your siblings day to day life for example, you may have coped with this and understood your mum’s need to work and it may have fostered a great work ethic etc in you particularly if you have a good relationship with her, whilst a sibling may have felt slightly neglected by the absence, saw it as an opportunity to go out more, get into more trouble, resolve to be a SAHM themselves or chronically unemployed feeling that they didn’t benefit from your mum’s efforts in the way they felt the should have etc so chose a different path-again same parenting different outcome

As parents we need to be more attuned to our children as individuals, and adapt accordingly eg same situation described above for me as a working parent of 2 kids. When I get home, child 1, seems ok, I prompt conversation re their day, try to engage them in doing something together etc, he seems less interested possibly due to his teenage age, 2nd child is proximity seeking and wants a 20min catch up of my undivided time where we both talk about our days etc have a cuddle etc till he wander’s off somewhere

As a parent, my job is not to think ahhh well I offered same to both boys and only one took up the offer, but to find another way to connect with child 1, understanding that he often wants to chat just before he goes to sleep, will mention something in passing that I have to pick up on or create other opportunities for connection, working that bit harder as they are both different.

We all speak about different love languages etc, I just feel that when a child commits a serious crime a need was not met, this could even be discipline, emotional support etc bearing in mind that adolescents will take risks etc, but we were all teens at some point so why will 1 become a criminal and 1 not?

I totally agree with this! My siblings and I all have a different opinion on how we were brought up. Some more positive than others.

It is essential to engage with each child as an individual. What does it actually mean to say ‘I treated them exactly the same’? As some do.

One of my sisters, very close to me in age, is a very angry person and she puts its down to how she was brought up and I am a very happy, well balanced person and I put it down to the way I was bought up.

I think that many siblings talk about how they were brought up and if truth be told,
whether it’s a life of crime or bad relationships with parents/ siblings/relationships many people would put some of the blame on the way they were brought up. The sad thing is many parents won’t listen.

Oh God not this again.

It's really not as black and white as that. Sometimes it is the parents' fault, sometimes it isn't. Of course there is a huge crossover and people who have grown up in dysfunctional, chaotic and violent homes are far more likely to end up living chaotic, criminal, violent lives themselves, more likely to have things like anti-social personality disorder etc, but it's not a given. By the same token, some children who have had loving stable homes and decent parents sometimes go completely off the rails in spite of their parents doing everything right.

I agree, and believe there should be more accountability. Perhaps if parents of criminals were fined or had their pensions docked to repay society, people would be more careful about reproducing and more attentive as parents.

Not always. My Aunt has three kids. Ones a lawyer, one’s a teacher and one’s a hopeless addict with a long list of criminal convictions. All parented the same way. The “bad” kid was always naughty right from a little child and no amount of parental input seemed to have any impact.

It can be due to parenting but not always. How do we explain the Southport killer? His parents tried to get him help years before he killed those girls. Other factors can be as much a factor.

@homemadebasilpesto.I was abused from early childhood until well into adulthood and yes they often used the "getting stuck in the past" and "self pitying" and "refusing to move forward" card. AND the "you were a difficult child" "this didn't happen" too. It absolutely can be appropriated by abusers, thanks for saying this @Perimenoanti. I was having therapy too. How on earth is having trauma therapy "not moving forward ?" " being stuck in the past".

Of course early years are crucial. Young people in the care system are much more likely to end up in prison than those with settled childhoods. The problem is cyclical though, as poor parenting leads to creating more poor parents.

It doesn't account for all crime of course but it is laughable to deny any link between childhood experiences and future criminality.

I think this could be true in many cases, yes. Alongside other factors like socio economic deprivation, trauma, bullying sexual abuse, etc. There have been a few exceptions of course.

What I find interesting is that one of the Jamie Bulger killers was from a dysfunctional home and had not offended again. I'm guessing he might not have been a true sociopath but just very dysfunctional from his upbringing and socio economic status. Of course his age and the fact that children can be more easily rehabilitated than many adults may have been a factor.

Its the same old Nature vs Nurture debate...

Environment plays apart but its also true that we aren't all born equal.

We are all individuals, capable of making our own decisions, i would argue your friendship groups have a far bigger influence on outcomes then parenting alone.

but with so many other factors- on the radio they were saying such a huge amount of people in jail have hearing/ speech/ literacy issues. Imagine they get no help in school and are resigned to being bullied/ left aside/ never given credit for anything, then low paying job/ unemployed/ homeless…

Yes the bullying would be a trauma risk. Mixed with lack of opportunities due to disabilities. A huge percentage of the prison population are in this demographic.

I was reading Pip Fallow's book Brought Up Proppa, about his childhood and youth in county Durham in the 70s. He suffered dyslexia at school and was treated abusively by a teacher. They considered him thick because he could barely read or write. He drifted into crime, but turned his life around as an adult . He had parents who taught him right from wrong and were sound and good parents which may have helped give him the push to turn his life around . It can be a very nuanced and complex mixture for many people in his situation I think. To be fair his offences were dishonest dealing related (Delboy type stuff) rather than violent or sexual. I do wonder if there is a bigger connection with upbringing regarding violence ?

I've heard that up until the age of about 7 or 8, parents are our biggest influence, after that, it's our peers. I can't remember which psychologist I heard it from but I can believe it .

And simply your personality too