To think if your child ends up violent or criminal, it is partly your fault?

[TheTaupeMoose]

Parenting does matter, sorry.

You are projecting. Those are not my attributes. They are yours.

This.

Some families are very dysfunctional and any support or help I've seen has just enabled them further sadly.

You’re absolutely right that middle-class and white-collar crime is often reframed as “cleverness” or ambition and rarely met with the same moral outrage or scrutiny as say, theft or violence. And yet, those choices also come from values instilled early on: entitlement, exceptionalism or the idea that “rules are for other people.”

I completely agree that parenting and environment don’t just shape people in one socioeconomic bracket - they influence everyone, including how we justify or rationalise unethical behaviour. And yes - we call some of it “getting ahead” or “doing what’s best for your kids” but it’s still about modelling values that can lead to harm. So I think you’ve added a really valuable layer to this conversation - parenting matters everywhere, even if it shows up differently.

@Dogaredabomb
Mostly those crimes, yes but a few violent offences as well such as assault etc. The crimes of the more affluent ones are of the nature where they will be likely to be attacked in prison if you know what I mean! Generally people have been more shocked by their crimes but I’m not sure how much of that is their background and how much is the nature of the offences.

Sometimes they are, depends on the crimes. At the moment an obvious one is the Manchester bombers, go for back and the Krays. But there are plenty who are leas publicised my house was broken into by brothers, the Police officers I dealt with did not find that unusual.

What ages though? Most mental illnesses don't develop until the late teens/early 20s, so outside the ages most teachers will see (unless you somehow knew the families or kept in touch).

In some cases 100% the parents lifestyle and parenting has played a part. Other times it hasn't. Some people have really loving families and then end up being junkies, doing crime ect. Some people are undiagnosed and havnt received the right support ect.

Thank you and I think that makes sense. If the ones from the more affluent backgrounds had committed the chaotic crimes their families are in a better position to lessen the outcome vastly. Also in certain sectors of society the 'petty' crimes are viewed as fairly run of the mill. Therefore the more affluent children will only end up in prison for crimes that can't be smoothed over.

@homemadebasilpesto
I taught secondary so these examples I’m thinking of are all late 20s/early 30s now. I only left teaching last summer and taught lots of younger siblings/cousins etc so have found out that way. Three of the cases have been high profile so I saw those on the news.

Kyle Clifford who murdered John Hunts wife and 2 daughters brother is also in prison serving a life sentence for the murder of a young man

In 2017, Clifford's brother, Bradley Clifford, was jailed for life for murdering a teenage who was 18 year old moped rider. He is serving 23 years .

2 men -brothers both in prison for murder

apparently the mum & dad are perfectly nice and normal people

how they cope with not one but both of there children in prison for murder I don’t know

The most incidious criminal behaviour in our society isn't from the children of these so called disfunctional families. The vast majority of their crime impacts on people in similar situations and has very limited impact on society as a whole. The crime that impacts the fabric of our society is committed by educated, professional people who have corrupted our institutions, hoarded wealth for the sake of it, manipulated legal process to protect their entitlements and privilege and managed to perpetuates an acceptance of dishonesty throughout generations. Why are we not debating why parents haven't stopped this in their children.
Did they not set boundaries for their children? What went wrong with their upbringing that they can act without moral compass if they can get away with it. This is much more interesting. We know why poverty and addiction leads to crime but what about the professional class and crime. What reasons do they have?

Did you see any examples of the children of 'good' backgrounds getting involved in chaotic 'petty' crime or did you find that type of crime was exclusively committed by children from troubled backgrounds? Did Ptolemy ever become a druggie burglar or was it always Ptyler?

Very interesting question! I suppose the entitled toffs use their accent and manners to manipulate the police. I would say the majority of police are working class conformers to perceived authority.

I couldn’t agree more - this is such a sharp and rarely discussed perspective. You’re right: we dissect the parenting and moral development of people from poorer or “dysfunctional” backgrounds in forensic detail but when it comes to the professional classes - the people who exploit legal loopholes, hoard resources, or perpetuate systemic dishonesty - we rarely ask “Where did they learn that this was okay?”

It’s still parenting. It’s still values being passed on. Just wrapped in polish and social capital.

You’re right, this is the more interesting and unexplored part of the conversation. We understand why desperation leads to some forms of crime. But what explains the entitlement, the moral detachment, the ability to sleep at night while exploiting others? That too is learned and often protected by the very systems those parents teach their kids to navigate.

Absolutely! Think of all the millions and millions in evaded taxes. So much more than the poorer end of the scale, benefit fraud. Yet one side of the same crime has a polished face.

I agree that society and systems are usually the biggest contributing factor, this often influences parenting (poverty, deprivation, capability of parents, parents own experiences etc)

It does play a part in ‘some’ cases, but not all.

One common theme I find in most situations actually is loss, whether that’s relationship breakdown, absent parents, or death. There is rarely a person I work with where loss doesn’t feature in their life, and often not a direct result of parenting, parenting can often be very good alongside this.

most children who offend are teenagers, where actually the world outside their home (contextual safeguarding) plays a bigger part in their life than home.

not saying parenting isn’t relevant it is, but it’s definitely not always parenting or even always partly the parents fault.

I find it really bizarre when people always quote the ‘two different siblings, one house’ trope. As we all know from experience and even these numerous threads on here that, two siblings can grow together but experience different childhoods eg one may be the favoured child and one the scapegoat, one allowed to do more chores, the other received more leeway due to gender norms in that household, childhood illness, temperament of each child, how they got on with their sibling, achievements and abilities at school, bullying etc etc

My point is, there are more nuances that differentiate how each child will experience their childhoods, even on here we see threads about beautiful people being treated with unmerited kindness or when people have lost weight, suddenly strangers are kinder to them etc, so again my point is two siblings, different looks, personality or ability etc could live in the same household, yet have a totally different experience of childhood, so yes parenting does play a part even if we simply must recognise that different parenting techniques are required for different children to thrive

Sure you did pet.

Of course parenting matters and many children in the criminal justice system come from troubled backgrounds.

But no way near all. With the amount of criminal and sex exploitation happening, which exploded during covid, I know of families where the parents are teachers, nurses, solicitors and even youth workers whose children have been exploited into criminal activity which can be difficult to escape.

Of course being a teacher or whatever doesn't automatically mean you're a good parent but there are increasing numbers of middle class kids from stable backgrounds involved in serious crime.

Imho addiction and alcoholism has a large hereditary component. However, whatever the cause, drink and drugs are responsible for many criminal acts.

Very interesting post. How does loss play into the dynamics?

Please tell me this is irony?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-024-02870-7

I think there is some genetic propensity towards violence. I see it in my own family where some are violent criminals and some have just turned out to be ultra competitive high achievers. But most (not all) are more aggressive than average. So I do think parenting can make a difference where someone has a propensity for a particular set of behaviours.

I do think there are some things like peadophilia which are probably not very much to do with parenting at all.

I read this study from the ministry of justice where youth offenders were very likely to have a sibling or parent in the criminal justice system as well. This indicates that there is a familial component.

I think it’s degrees of likelihood tbh. Genetics and environment. Otherwise when someone becomes a serial killer no-one would be interested in their background or childhood at all.

I’m disinclined to think that we can always blame “society”. Many ethnic groups moved to the UK for example with fuck all and managed to generally have low crime rates and reasonable financial success. Stable families makes such a difference. We don’t do anyone any favours by placing responsibility further and further away from individuals. It’s a message of hopelessness, even though it’s well meaning.

Parenting must help - teaching children moral values, not putting their needs and wants above others, learning to be happy independent of money, learning to control emotions and taking no for an answer

but there is a lot more also going on - who parented the parents, how much stress are they under trying to survive, what opportunity for crime is easily visible and normalised to the child