To think if your child ends up violent or criminal, it is partly your fault?

[TheTaupeMoose]

Parenting does matter, sorry.

Bollocks to that
You cannot possibly think that is true in all cases.

Both my sister and I had awful upbringings. Abuse, neglect, violence. We've both done really well in life. Independently of each other, due to the age difference but also being separated due to family rupture. And yet educationally and financially, we're both good.

It definitely isn't anything to do with having a stable or supportive family unit/upbringing. It can only be in our genes.

What are you on about,it’s not about finger pointing? You’ve unreservedly just blamed parents for their shortcomings in raising reprobates

Fair point on the wording - “criminal” in the legal sense does mean convicted. But I think most people reading the post would understand I’m referring to serious antisocial or violent behaviour, whether or not someone has technically been charged.

The larger point still stands: when a person displays harmful, dangerous, or criminal behaviour (legally or not), it’s valid to ask what role upbringing played - alongside everything else.

How do you allow for intent? What about capability?What about harmful and dangerous when mentally unwell? What’s your provision then.
Don’t keep telling us problems Tell me what you’ll do, how you’ll implement and fund it.

Absolutely and that’s exactly why I wouldn’t say parenting is the only factor, just a significant one. Siblings growing up in the same home can have very different experiences depending on temperament, birth order, emotional attention, trauma, even who they’re most bonded to.

But if we’re looking at causes, it makes sense to look at all parts of the environment - including parenting style, consistency, modelling of behaviour and how conflict or emotion were handled. The fact that one sibling turned out differently doesn’t mean parenting had no impact - just that it’s part of a more complex picture.

@Zone2NorthLondon

uou can’t surely live in zone 2 with such views?

op I hear you and agree it’s nature and nurture

look up maternal deprivation/attachment theory

Yup, zone 2. What’s the issue.?

That’s not what I said at all. I’ve never claimed parents are entirely to blame and I’ve acknowledged several times that life is complex, with factors like poverty, trauma, inequality, and individual personality all playing a role.

But I also don’t think we should be so afraid of sounding “judgy” that we completely ignore the role parenting can play in shaping behaviour, especially long-term. It’s not about finger pointing, as I’ve said, it’s about being honest that home life and upbringing matter. That doesn’t mean every parent of a troubled child failed. But it does mean parenting should be part of the conversation, not off-limits.

I don’t think anyone is preventing you from saying parenting might be a contributing factor, though. Say it as much as you like.

The only situation where I’ve closely observed for many years the parenting of a criminal doesn’t help, though. The criminal is my BIL (two prison terms for armed robbery), his parents my meek, well-meaning, deeply ordinary, law-abiding PILs, and their four other children (1) my kind, public-spirited, hardworking SIL, his twin (2) my other dull, decent, hardworking family man BIL, (3) my lazy, clever SIL, and (4) my lovely, high-achieving DH.

All law-abiding, other than a (failed) attempt by the clever, lazy SIL to get planning permission to convert an outbuilding by faking evidence it had previously been inhabited.

It broke my PILs hearts when he was convicted, and (they don’t live in the UK, but he lived and was convicted there) took on extra shifts to fund going to see him monthly in prison.

I can’t offer any explanations — he is the joint eldest and DH the baby, so he was already in prison when I first started going out with DH, and after a brief attempt at rapprochement when he was released and got married, he’s now cut off the entire family. I gather he’s on benefits, has very poor MH and has a lot of health problems, but it’s more than 20 years since I saw him.

Parents do have the opportunity to teach/model to their children how to deal with adversity without resorting to violence or crime, how to deal with coercive, difficult or cruel people, how to avoid bad situations and ultimately how to treat others with care and consideration.

So yes, I agree OP, parents can have a significant impact on how a child grows up to handle a tough world, where to seek support and how to make choices that don't harm themselves or others.

You are apportioning blame
Ok what is your solution. What are you proposing? What’s the intervention
Enough of the bus stop wisdom, what are you suggesting happens.

Yes and no.

We can’t pretend there isn’t a huge link between a chaotic upbringing and a propensity to go on and commit crime. Because there really is.

Bit equally sometimes I think the Mumsnet idea of what ‘chaotic’ means is a bit off - not having a bedroom each, raising your voice at your kids, letting them walk to school alone at 10 and so on.

I think parenting now is so bad the government wouldn’t be blamed if they stepped in with some kind of heavy handed social services who could confiscate tablets and vapes etc

I actually dread the future when I see some of the kids at DD primary school

I feel like a tenth will be in prison, a tenth will need full time carers, a tenth will need part time carers and a quarter will be unemployed

As I’ve said, I agree that intent, capability and mh are hugely important in understanding harmful or dangerous behaviour. Of course those factors matter - that’s exactly why this is a complex issue, not a one size fits all scenario.

But I think we should be able to talk about parenting as one contributing factor - not the only one - without needing to come with a full intervention model, budget, and implementation plan. Like I said to you before… raising a social concern isn’t the same as claiming to be a policymaker. Not every conversation about patterns or influence needs to end with legislation - sometimes it just starts with being honest about uncomfortable truths.

Depends how old they are. Who we are is a mix of nurture and nature. It’s not black and white.

It's a widely known factor, that's why there's a lot of emphasis on parenting and services such as HV, education, parenting courses and SS that get involved with families.

People strangely point out that siblings from the same parents can have different outcomes without somehow recognising that children have individual needs and require different things throughout their childhood in terms of parenting. One child with ADHD requires different input from a NT sibling, and those with issues that don't get the correct support can lead to issues that snowball, and some go on to commit crimes due to the lack of self-regulation and it's compounding impacts over time. Parenting is very nuanced so talking about 'we had the same yet brother did XYZ' just because you both lived in the same home with the same basic schedule doesn't mean each child got what they needed and had the same opportunities. It doesn't mean the parenting was the same and therefore bares no responsibility.

Either this is some kind of AI bot or you're the same person who posted the McDonalds neglect thread. The style is exactly the same.

You're an issue raiser? That’s easy position to maintain you externalise and complain without having to think about intervention etc. You want to raise issues but have no suggestions . You don’t want to be diverted by policy you must want to raise issues and apportion blame

Well, it would be a lot easier to engage in a sensible, balanced discussion along th elines of this, your most recent post, if you hadn't opened with a clickbaity, goady post. Pity, it's an interesting discussion and one I'd usually engage with.

A lot of it has totally to do with upbringing. I wouldn't blame poverty as such. More the parent child relationship. I don't understand how this is controversial. A child that feels loved and has a secure attachment probably won't become a drug addict or murderer.

Parents never want to accept their role because it requires introspection and some work on oneself.

What about the mental health crisis. It's not new. Just more talked about. Once I processed my childhood trauma (from my parents) my depression and panic attacks disappeared. I totally blame my parents for my struggles as they used me as an object to project their shit onto and this caused me great harm. Took 20 years, hard work and lots of money to undo.

I think you’re misreading my intent - I’m not writing a white paper, I’m raising a point about influence. Yes, parenting isn’t the only factor. And yes, poverty, trauma and systemic injustice matter hugely. But I’m suggesting that we shouldn’t be afraid to say parenting also plays a role, and sometimes, a major one, in shaping how a person relates to the world, others, and consequences.

That’s not “bus stop wisdom” - that’s common sense backed by decades of psychological and behavioural research. If you’re only willing to engage with people who have funding plans and intervention models in-hand, you’ll miss a lot of valuable conversations. Some truths are uncomfortable but that doesn’t mean they’re not worth saying.

The problem with how you've titled this thread, @TheTaupeMoose , is you end up with idiotic comments like a PP It’s always the parents fault

There's a vast range of cause and effect of criminality or anti-social behaviour, including as others have pointed out genetics, parenting, peer pressure, the society you live in and the availability of jobs. Your posts indicate more nuance, but the title is irritatingly inviting of very stupid comments.

Famous last words, OP. Be careful what you say as it can come to bite you later.

Of course parenting is important but it's not everything. I can't make my older children do anything, stop them doing anything they decide on, and they might have different values to me.

If one of my children commits a criminal act, it's got nothing to do with me and is directly against everything I will have taught them.

Actually, one did try drugs several times. I suppose that's a criminal act. I've never tried drugs, neither has their father or siblings. I educated them well about why they shouldn't and they did it anyway. I take no responsibility for their stupid choice. They were trying to fit in with a group, something else I've also taught them not to try to do and taught them how to stand up against peer pressure. If they'd been arrested, their choice, their responsibility. Nothing to do with me.

@TheTaupeMoose what do you think trauma is if not childhood trauma caused by parents?