For refusing to go to Church?

[TheGreyPony]

Me and DP have been together for 4 years and are newly engaged.

My family is atheist and DPs family is catholic (DP is not practicing any religion)

DPs family go to church every Sunday and special occasions (Easter, Christmas…)

DP doesn’t go to church expect for on Christmas Eve, which is mother states is extremely important to her.

She has asked me every year if I will go to church at Christmas with them, and I explained me and my family have our own traditions and it’s not something I want to give up.

She keeps asking DP and I to go to church on a Sunday with her. She says how much it would mean to them, and how sad she is that DP doesn’t take his faith seriously.
DP genuinely just can’t be bothered to go, and i genuinely could not care less about Church or anything to do with religion.

I am not “anti-religion” I just don’t believe it in at all and do find the whole thing ridiculous (don’t worry, I’d never say that to his family) I worry she blames me for DPs lack of faith, but I also find myself biting my tongue whenever something good happens (like I get a promotion) and she tells me to thank god - because I think, I did that on own, not God.

AMBU for refusing to go? I know it’s important to her, but I just don’t like religion and I feel like it would be more disrespectful to lie.
Should I pretend, and go to church to keep the peace? Or be true to myself?

That applies in reverse.

A man could not be a Deaconess.

@godmum56 so churches and religion have zero to do with societal expectation?

I didn't say that.

The person who started this discussion claimed that (in their opinion)

Most of them - a womans place is to serve and be the house slave for a man
Christianity, islam, all the same broken down
She is 2nd to a man, not an equal, seen as an incubator

I disagreed with that and pointed out that religious bodies don't make secular laws that disadvantage women.

@Marsyoungersister

You understand though surely that in the UK, for example, Christianity and specifically the gender roles within it, were a key influence on secular laws around marriage, divorce and property rights that traditionally gave much more power to men than women? Coverture for example.

no but he could be a deacon and do all the same stuff and addtionally he could become a priest.

not only that but houses of religion were used to "store" spare women.

A Smurf can’t be a Smurfette either. What’s your point?

That "discrimination" works both ways.

Let's go back to the original criticism -

"Most of them - a womans place is to serve and be the house slave for a man
Christianity, islam, all the same broken down
She is 2nd to a man, not an equal, seen as an incubator"

I don't see any complaint about Property Rights?

However, women could own property as far back as the Middle Ages, but their rights varied significantly based on marital status and legal traditions. While married women were often legally considered subordinate to their husbands, and their property might be transferred to them upon marriage, single and widowed women often retained significant control over their own property and business affairs.

Which is one reason why Elizabeth 1st of England didn't marry - she wanted to keep the power to herself (also the fact that her mother had lost her head by being involved with a man may have also influenced this choice ! 🙄)

It would appear that the author of the complaint sees being a SAHM a less valuable position than that of her partner/husband.

Now when someone on a thread a while ago said that SAHMs were "unemployed" the thread nearly burst into flames 😮
People were incensed at this derogatory attitude, saying it was an equal position to a man, and a very valuable one.

Now we have someone advocating the opposite. My brain hurts🤔

Should I pretend, and go to church to keep the peace? Or be true to myself?

It doesn't have to be either/or, though.
Going to church occasionally doesn't automatically mean you follow that religion.
The vicar isn't going to identify you as a non-believer and exorcise you from the building if you turn up with MIL.

People go to church (and the equivalent for other religions) for various reasons - to try it out, for a sense of community, to support someone who is religious, for a place of quiet reflection, because they are interested in the history or architecture, to attend a specific celebration (e.g. wedding/christening), or just to see inside the building (I went to a service in St Paul's because I wanted to look inside but didn't want to pay the £20plus charge, for example!)

I've been to different denomination celebrations/services for a few religions. As long as you are respectful while you're there, it's not an issue if you don't actually follow said religion.

Of course you don't HAVE to go, but if you otherwise get along with MIL and it means a lot to her, I don't think the 'religious' element needs to be as much of a big deal as you a making it into - you could just think of it in the same way as, for example, going to the cinema with her to see a film you're not that bothered about, or going to a NT property with her even though it's not your sort of thing - basically occasionally doing something you're not that keen on because it's something she wants to do and you want to spend time with her.

You’ve quoted someone who isn’t me. My post was in response to you saying (direct quote) “religious bodies don’t make secular laws that disadvantage women”.

My point was that secular laws have traditionally been very heavily influenced by the religion of the country in which they are made. By Christianity in the UK, as per my example. I’m not sure how you could disagree with that?

And I think sometimes there is confusion over the SAHM issue where it can appear people are saying the role is less valuable but actually (not always, but often) they’re saying it’s more vulnerable.

@godmum56 houses of religion were used to "store" spare women.

Sometimes, houses of religion, particularly nunneries, were used as refuges or "dumping grounds" for unmarriageable daughters of middling and gentry families. While many nuns had genuine religious vocations, some were sent to convents as a way to address social pressures related to unmarried women

Nunneries provided a place for these women to live under religious discipline and away from potential social pressure. Sending daughters to convents could also be seen as a way to avoid the financial burden of providing dowries for marriage.

Surely this was a lot better than throwing them on the streets to earn their living by prostitution or selling them as slaves?

except the OP (who knows her MIL) sees it as a foot in the door to a church wedding and christened children........

Spin your head round and do a spider crawl down the church steps.

@whathaveiforgotten My point was that secular laws have traditionally been very heavily influenced by the religion of the country in which they are made. By Christianity in the UK, as per my example. I’m not sure how you could disagree with that?

I would agree but not that the influence was necessarily negative.
The Church of England, as the established church, has had an impact on the legal system, and many laws reflect Christian principles and values

Many laws, including those related to morality, family matters, and social justice, can be traced back to Christian teachings and beliefs. For example, laws against murder and theft are rooted in the Ten Commandments.

So are you saying that a deaconess is a very specific role that is distinctly different from the role of deacon (which can be held by a man)? Because if not, the only difference is that you’re using a feminine form of the title.

No! Tell her not to ask again as you will never go, & any further questions on church will be ignored. Should it continue ask her to join you on a nudist beach as you know she’ll love it, more than church.

Every Sunday or just this coming Sunday, which is Easter Sunday?

Either way, this is for your fiancé to deal with.
"Mum, I don't go to Mass any more. I haven't gone to Mass regularly since X/Y/ZZZZ (or since I left home). I realise this is a matter of concern for you, and probably a disappointment too, and I'm sorry for that. As you know, TheGreyPony wasn't brought up in any faith tradition and has no wish to go to any religious service. We love you very much and value the bonds that tie us all together, but are both feeling uncomfortable about the invitations to go to Mass with you and kindly ask that you stop asking."

He needs to be honest with his mother. No need for rudeness, but he needs to make it clear that he is an adult who has made decisions for himself on his religious practice, and who will make decisions about the future religious practice of his family unit with you.

Kind, loving and caring are all highly relative and subjective. Societies who don't agree on values are not cohesive or fruitful environments for thriving or productivity. The disagreements over what kind, loving and caring are lead to serious conflict. Its an interesting exercise to keep looking further - what do you consider kind, loving and caring in any given situation and why?

See I did it really fascinating that your answer isn’t a ‘yes’ to what I proposed - which was simply whether the driving force behind some people’s decisions can be selfless if they don’t believe in god. I grew up in a religious setting and believe almost everyone there would have said simply ‘yes, of course that can be the case even if they don’t in god’.

I know a number of people who have dedicated their lives to service of various sorts for poor pay and scant societal reward / recognition (I can think of three women I know who are carers for the elderly in their work life, do charity fundraising and are lovely mums in their personal life, for example).

You would be very hard pushed to find anyone from any walk of life who wouldn’t consider them to be kind, loving and caring. Through their deeds and their choices which routinely put other people first.

Two of them are atheist, one is Hindu. Do you believe that the atheist ones can be driven by a genuine desire to be loving and kind even though they don’t believe in god?

This is a very complex question and would take a long time to respond to. I'm sure you are hoping for a one worded answer which I can't give you. I'm disappointed you didn't engage with what I actually said in my post and feel it's probably not worth trying to explain further. But for the sake of not sidestepping a direct question completely - I might question that they do not believe in God, they might not conceptualise God as some cosmic material entity, but I would be curious to know the ways they act against Christs teaching

“Can someone be driven by a genuine desire to be loving and kind even if they don’t believe in god?” isn’t a complex question at all though. Perhaps some other people of faith on the thread could answer if you’re uncomfortable doing so and have said you don’t want to explain further, as is your prerogative.

FWIW it’s not some sort of trick question. I find it refreshing when people of faith acknowledge that non believers are just as capable of behaving in good, selfless, kind and loving ways as religious people. I think someone of faith openly expressing that can actually help facilitate a more open and sensitive discussion all round 🤷🏻‍♀️

No hard feelings though, I respect that you don’t want to explain further.

OP hasn't said that anywhere so I'm not sure where you've got that from?

From experience this is exactly the thing to avoid

Once you have stepped foot into the church once you won’t have any excuse about not going again when she asks and she most definitely will ask,

Surely if OP's MIL simply wants to spend time with OP and wants OP to meet her friends, she could organise a social event that would fulfil both those requirements without OP, an atheist, having to attend a Catholic church service?

Attending a church wedding or visiting a NT property does not have the potential to set some sort of precedent where OP's boundries are continually challenged and MIL's expectations are raised about OP agreeing to a Catholic wedding ceremony and sending her children to Catholic schools.