Page 36 | Gender and pronouns

Wyki · 2025-04-10T17:55:13+00:00

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but…. aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18 He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for) the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important) So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

flaffydaffy · 14/04/2025 13:24

Helleofabore · 14/04/2025 12:26

I asked this question to you before flaffy, I will ask it again:

“Why don't you think that female people of any age should have or want privacy from male people in a female single sex space?”

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Hey don't draw me into arguments I don't give a shit about! I took the piss out of people chatting about taking off their clothes to wash baby sick or milk off them, and taking a really solemn tone about it, as if it's a thing. Then someone said what if a man with a lactation fetish saw you doing that?! And I took the piss out of that too. That's it. There are other good reasons women might want a space away from men, yeah, sure.

flaffydaffy · 14/04/2025 13:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 14/04/2025 12:52

@flaffydaffy I might have missed it, but did you ever respond to the question about whether a woman who is having a miscarriage should be entitled to have access to single sex (not gender) public toilets?

No? Why would I respond to that? I have no major opinion on it, never said I did.

BelfastBard · 14/04/2025 13:28

Couleur · 14/04/2025 13:02

@lifeturnsonadime

i've also had to help a muslim girl whose period product failed and she'd leaked from behind onto her dress.

Why did you feel you had to mention this girl was Muslim? What difference does that make?

To illustrate that had a man been in that same space, the girl would not have been able to be there or avail of the intimate help.

Helleofabore · 14/04/2025 13:29

flaffydaffy · 14/04/2025 13:24

Hey don't draw me into arguments I don't give a shit about! I took the piss out of people chatting about taking off their clothes to wash baby sick or milk off them, and taking a really solemn tone about it, as if it's a thing. Then someone said what if a man with a lactation fetish saw you doing that?! And I took the piss out of that too. That's it. There are other good reasons women might want a space away from men, yeah, sure.

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I see. So just random shaming then.

Because some people choose to reduce the smell of what stains their clothes and the stain in a way you wouldn’t choose to do. Great result!

We have identified now that you simply couldn’t give a shit (your words) about the lives of others, you just want to be able to shame them.

Couleur · 14/04/2025 13:29

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 14/04/2025 13:19

I would have thought that was obvious.

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No, actually. It’s a dress like any other.

Couleur · 14/04/2025 13:30

BelfastBard · 14/04/2025 13:28

To illustrate that had a man been in that same space, the girl would not have been able to be there or avail of the intimate help.

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But that’s the same for any woman.

Helleofabore · 14/04/2025 13:30

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 14/04/2025 13:19

I would have thought that was obvious.

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I thought so too.

LittlerCharlotte · 14/04/2025 13:31

BelfastBard · 12/04/2025 23:40

Interrogated? You were asked questions on how you’d reached your views. Hardly an interrogation?

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The way the questions were framed was very pointed, hence I stepped away. I deleted my account but started this one when I saw someone had lost their dog and I really wanted to reply. Thought I may as well come back here to add to my previous post. FWIW I personally would not have an issue with the people I know using a female space [i] with me, and only if the others using it were consenting.[/i] I don't for one second believe they have a God-given right to do so, nor do I think they have it legally. I do not think they should have the freedom to do it at the expense of women's feelings & safety. As posted elsewhere, we cannot tell who the 'safe' ones are, so we keep them all out.

Throughout my posts I did think I'd made it clear these were my views only about the people I know, who are very different to the aggressive shouty misogynists who seem to represent trans people, and that I did not expect nor believe anyone else should go along with them. That includes, I'd have thought, the people who make the laws. That obviously wasn't so clear, so here we go. Nothing misogynistic, nothing about denying the rights of other women - a personal feeling which does not seek to, and nor should it have any impact on, altering the law nor the belief/views of other people.

BelfastBard · 14/04/2025 13:33

LittlerCharlotte · 14/04/2025 13:31

The way the questions were framed was very pointed, hence I stepped away. I deleted my account but started this one when I saw someone had lost their dog and I really wanted to reply. Thought I may as well come back here to add to my previous post. FWIW I personally would not have an issue with the people I know using a female space [i] with me, and only if the others using it were consenting.[/i] I don't for one second believe they have a God-given right to do so, nor do I think they have it legally. I do not think they should have the freedom to do it at the expense of women's feelings & safety. As posted elsewhere, we cannot tell who the 'safe' ones are, so we keep them all out.

Throughout my posts I did think I'd made it clear these were my views only about the people I know, who are very different to the aggressive shouty misogynists who seem to represent trans people, and that I did not expect nor believe anyone else should go along with them. That includes, I'd have thought, the people who make the laws. That obviously wasn't so clear, so here we go. Nothing misogynistic, nothing about denying the rights of other women - a personal feeling which does not seek to, and nor should it have any impact on, altering the law nor the belief/views of other people.

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They were “pointed” in so much as they were intended to address the specifics of the issues being talked about.

Its very easy for people to make blanket statements about “kindness” and “inclusivity” when they don’t have to get into the finer details of what that looks like for women and girls…

flaffydaffy · 14/04/2025 13:33

TheKeatingFive · 14/04/2025 10:58

I agree that this is an unlikely sequence of events to come together.

But for me, it's a broader point. There are a range of male fetishes that would make women's bathrooms attractive to men for fetish-related reasons. Why would we put up with that?

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Anyone can have a fetish! I once listened to two podcasts in a row (I suppose YouTube gave them to me one after the other because they were related) each about a woman with a scat fetish, one who got off on listening to people poo and the other who actually liked to eat it. Those women might be in the women's toilets!!! Anyway I don't think it's worth letting other people's hypothetical fetishes get to you, else you'd never wear sandals.

Helleofabore · 14/04/2025 13:33

LittlerCharlotte · 14/04/2025 13:31

The way the questions were framed was very pointed, hence I stepped away. I deleted my account but started this one when I saw someone had lost their dog and I really wanted to reply. Thought I may as well come back here to add to my previous post. FWIW I personally would not have an issue with the people I know using a female space [i] with me, and only if the others using it were consenting.[/i] I don't for one second believe they have a God-given right to do so, nor do I think they have it legally. I do not think they should have the freedom to do it at the expense of women's feelings & safety. As posted elsewhere, we cannot tell who the 'safe' ones are, so we keep them all out.

Throughout my posts I did think I'd made it clear these were my views only about the people I know, who are very different to the aggressive shouty misogynists who seem to represent trans people, and that I did not expect nor believe anyone else should go along with them. That includes, I'd have thought, the people who make the laws. That obviously wasn't so clear, so here we go. Nothing misogynistic, nothing about denying the rights of other women - a personal feeling which does not seek to, and nor should it have any impact on, altering the law nor the belief/views of other people.

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Thanks for clarifying littlecharlotte.

Couleur · 14/04/2025 13:34

Helleofabore · 14/04/2025 13:02

I have found the dismissal to be almost startling life. And yes, I have had to jam pram/pushchairs laden with groceries into toilet doorways. Too. And even my mum's wheelchair because there was no other option available for her.

But to some people, it never occurs to them that some others have complicated lives. I also suspect those people have support at home that other's simply don't have (so no just leaving a baby at home with someone to pop out to the shops / appointments) and they may have cars and live in a place designed around car usage, such as Australia or the US. However, it shouldn't matter. Because if female people are saying, 'this is my need based on my experience', other people should be accepting that this is a need that a single sex space is designed for and usually fulfils.

From the really offensive and highly exaggerated reframing, to the 'I have never experienced this', to the 'I have never seen this', to the accusations of being weird for doing a pretty standard practice action and more. And the development of a hierarchy of those needs and how we should or should not be discussing them.

There is always, and I am talking generally, some sort of disconnect between the complex reality of other people's lives and people who seem to need to shame others for wanting privacy in a place they expect to be single sex.

But it always comes down to some people needing to dismiss female people's needs for single sex spaces to remain single sex.

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Ooh, startling. Remarkable.

I gave you a small summary of my life with small children and it’s nothing like you paint it here. Nothing. But you cannot accept that other experiences exist.

LittlerCharlotte · 14/04/2025 13:36

BelfastBard · 14/04/2025 13:33

They were “pointed” in so much as they were intended to address the specifics of the issues being talked about.

Its very easy for people to make blanket statements about “kindness” and “inclusivity” when they don’t have to get into the finer details of what that looks like for women and girls…

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IMO they were intended to try and catch me out in some way. They were framed in a deliberately aggressive manner - "and what do you think about THIS? Eh?" I don't know why you are talking about "kindness" and "inclusivity" when I never mentioned either of those things.

LittlerCharlotte · 14/04/2025 13:45

BUT I don't want to get into a disagreement. I just wanted to state my position. Now I have to unsubscribe from Mumsnet endless emails all over again. 😬

TheKeatingFive · 14/04/2025 13:46

flaffydaffy · 14/04/2025 13:33

Anyone can have a fetish! I once listened to two podcasts in a row (I suppose YouTube gave them to me one after the other because they were related) each about a woman with a scat fetish, one who got off on listening to people poo and the other who actually liked to eat it. Those women might be in the women's toilets!!! Anyway I don't think it's worth letting other people's hypothetical fetishes get to you, else you'd never wear sandals.

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Yes anyone can have a fetish, but why would that mean I have to let men into my private spaces, where they have the potential to do worse to me than use me as a prop in their fetish? Why arent women allowed to assert their own boundaries here?

BelfastBard · 14/04/2025 13:47

LittlerCharlotte · 14/04/2025 13:36

IMO they were intended to try and catch me out in some way. They were framed in a deliberately aggressive manner - "and what do you think about THIS? Eh?" I don't know why you are talking about "kindness" and "inclusivity" when I never mentioned either of those things.

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The kindness and inclusivity part of my comment was a comment on the wider issue of why people who are gender critical ask such specific questions.

And you’ve actually articulated what I believe is another major issue in the whole debate. The simple questions posed aren’t “trick questions” or designed to trip people up… they’re literally simple questions about how a person has come to the opinion they have and asking them to think about how that plays out. There’s no trickery involved. So when someone says “I have no issue with a trans woman using a female space” it’s helpful in the context of a discussion to draw that out and have them consider that their stance actually has lots of implications. When the question changes from a broader “are you okay with trans women in female changing rooms” to something like “are you okay with adult male bodied people watching 13 year old girls get changed for swimming” it feels very different. And it’s meant to. Because the first question skims over the reality. And the second draws attention to the result of it…

LittlerCharlotte · 14/04/2025 13:52

BelfastBard · 14/04/2025 13:47

The kindness and inclusivity part of my comment was a comment on the wider issue of why people who are gender critical ask such specific questions.

And you’ve actually articulated what I believe is another major issue in the whole debate. The simple questions posed aren’t “trick questions” or designed to trip people up… they’re literally simple questions about how a person has come to the opinion they have and asking them to think about how that plays out. There’s no trickery involved. So when someone says “I have no issue with a trans woman using a female space” it’s helpful in the context of a discussion to draw that out and have them consider that their stance actually has lots of implications. When the question changes from a broader “are you okay with trans women in female changing rooms” to something like “are you okay with adult male bodied people watching 13 year old girls get changed for swimming” it feels very different. And it’s meant to. Because the first question skims over the reality. And the second draws attention to the result of it…

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I didn't say that I was fine with it in general, nor that I was fine with it for other people. I gave the context. My friends, me.

Social media has shifted our ability to debate with strangers, I think - so everything becomes an attack/argument, deliberate or not, rather than an exchange of ideas. I will do the latter until the cows come home. The former I have given up on, one of the reasons I left Twitter and deleted my account on here. Choose your battles because a lot of us are on the same side.

BelfastBard · 14/04/2025 13:58

LittlerCharlotte · 14/04/2025 13:52

I didn't say that I was fine with it in general, nor that I was fine with it for other people. I gave the context. My friends, me.

Social media has shifted our ability to debate with strangers, I think - so everything becomes an attack/argument, deliberate or not, rather than an exchange of ideas. I will do the latter until the cows come home. The former I have given up on, one of the reasons I left Twitter and deleted my account on here. Choose your battles because a lot of us are on the same side.

Edited

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I guess we have very different perceptions on what constitutes an “attack”. It would seem that for a lot of people any kind of challenge to their views is perceived as an attack.

LittlerCharlotte · 14/04/2025 14:02

BelfastBard · 14/04/2025 13:58

I guess we have very different perceptions on what constitutes an “attack”. It would seem that for a lot of people any kind of challenge to their views is perceived as an attack.

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It would seem that for some people, a challenge to their method of approach is unfathomable.

You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 14/04/2025 14:11

flaffydaffy · 14/04/2025 08:16

It's just weird that you would make that choice. What kind of stains are improved by a quick wash with hand soap and water, getting it wetter than it was originally and absolutely no guarantee that you'll be able to get it dry? If I had a breast milk leak in public I wouldn't risk getting my clothes even wetter, I would let it dry on my body and hope the stain isn't particularly white. Baby sick, even copious, will look better if you soak most of it up and leave it than if you soak it and try to dry it. Red wine or blood might fade ever so slightly but remain incredibly visible so you may as well not get it soaking wet trying to wash it. Covering up with a jumper or tying it around your waist or something is the better option.

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Or, you know, just don’t let men, however they ID, use women’s toilets and / or changing rooms.

And none of your suggestions would have helped me after a drunk twat puked down my back, but I’m sure you’d have been fine just picking out the chunks and carrying on 💪

BelfastBard · 14/04/2025 14:14

LittlerCharlotte · 14/04/2025 14:02

It would seem that for some people, a challenge to their method of approach is unfathomable.

You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

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Yet another iteration of the idea that women ought to “play nice” to be taken seriously.

We can have our opinions so long as we’re nice and sweet about it all and don’t kick up a fuss.

The flies haven’t been caught. We’ve a long way to go.

Helleofabore · 14/04/2025 14:28

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 14/04/2025 14:11

Or, you know, just don’t let men, however they ID, use women’s toilets and / or changing rooms.

And none of your suggestions would have helped me after a drunk twat puked down my back, but I’m sure you’d have been fine just picking out the chunks and carrying on 💪

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Apparently, we just need to remove the chunks, pat ourselves down with muslins and wrap a jumper around the stained area.

No need to try to reduce the smell or the staining. And if you have to use public transport, well, I don’t know.

I didn’t want to mention to the poster that if you have bled through clothes that not removing the bleeding after getting new san pro just means you end up with a stained jumper. Or stained chairs. But I guess that poster thinks people can just go home straight away. And likely stand up on public transport on the way home.

Oh, and apparently we should not be solemn when we discuss our experiences.

Dfpartaccak · 14/04/2025 14:36

I don't believe in gender fluidity at all. I believe you are what you are by your chromosomes. What you feel is your personality? Though like is our belief backed up scientifically? Because I see these things online with "um actually, science supports transgenderism"

BundleBoogie · 14/04/2025 14:38

flaffydaffy · 14/04/2025 13:33

Anyone can have a fetish! I once listened to two podcasts in a row (I suppose YouTube gave them to me one after the other because they were related) each about a woman with a scat fetish, one who got off on listening to people poo and the other who actually liked to eat it. Those women might be in the women's toilets!!! Anyway I don't think it's worth letting other people's hypothetical fetishes get to you, else you'd never wear sandals.

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Wow! You managed to listen to not one but two podcasts about poo fetishes 🤢🤢 but get uncomfortable with with women discussing run of the mill activities in the public toilets and how to stop blokes who shouldn’t be in there.

NOT where I thought you would go with this.

flaffydaffy · 14/04/2025 14:41

Of course if a stranger threw up on my top I would take it off! This is the first time anyone's mentioned non-baby vomit so why do you assume what I think about that?? Stop putting words in my mouth.