Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

I'm genuinely shocked how anti trans it is! I'm fairly new to MN. The absolute hate and outrage on here is absolutely disgusting.

YABU. Your 11yo needs protecting from your attitude not your pink haired friends pronouns.

Believing in biological reality isn’t being anti-trans.

Plenty of women on here don’t really care how others choose to identify - but do care very much about children being given puberty blockers, about women’s safety being impacted, about places in women’s sport being taken, and about women’s language being eroded.

A forum aimed at women has lots of posters who are passionate about women’s rights. Shocker.

And that extends to caring about our daughters, including ensuring that they aren’t influenced by social contagion.

I firmly believe that everyone has the right to call themselves what they want to

But I don’t have to believe them

Isn’t it called gaslighting when you try to make people believe an obvious lie?

She can refer to herself how she wants, and believe whatever she likes about herself. She cannot compel others to believe the same thing or dictate what language they use.

I agree that banning your son’s girlfriend is not useful.

I would use the name his girlfriend uses. I would also explain to my son that I use sex-based pronouns and will not pretend a young woman is male, therefore would be saying she and her as appropriate, although rarely required in face to face situations.

in this way you can model good welcoming behaviour to both your children without subscribing to ideological views you don’t believe in.

But who really gives anyone the right to decide what people calls themselves this ''it is my house and you are not allowed entry as you have called yourself something I demand is wrong so there I will have strop" idea sounds childish and controlling

even if I think identify as whatever the latest fad is is bollocks it is their business not mine

One more thought - I would treat this as similar to a religious believer visiting an atheist. Both views can be respected without a need to pretend to believe the opposite.

This will do terrible things to your relationship with your son. But you do you, I guess.

I think the partner can use whatever pronouns they like. NOYB.

BUT I also think it's your home and you pay the bills so make the rules. Tell your son partner isn't welcome if you don't want them to come over. Your house, your choice.

My 18 year old DD has friends who identify as all sorts .. some within the sex they are born in, some not, nome non-binary.

TBH, I think most of it is a load of hooey - however, I bear in mind that these are young people, with developing brains, who have limited executive function, who are navigating a confusing world.

Instead of making it a thing, and lecturing them on sex v gender, I just smile and get on with it. I pass not judgement either way. They will grow up, and might make other decisions as that happens, but, I’m not going into conflict with basically a child.

It’s not the hill worth dying on, with people so young.

I would say you are not prepared to lie to your daughter, so she can come over but will be correctly sexed.

It’s a good opportunity for a conversation with your daughter. And your son.

This.

I think this is a great approach. This is exactly how I'd play it too.

Tbh, if you make a big deal out of it by "banning" her from the house etc, you're probably just giving it oxygen and validation. Like other PPs have said, your DD will encounter this at high school so this is a good opportunity to tackle the topic and make sure that she has a solid grounding in biological reality without all the hoohah and peer pressure that will come with it at school.

If the girlfriend insists on being referred to as a boy, they are forcing others to actively go along with their beliefs though. Christians don’t demand that you refer to them as ‘Saved Hannah’ for example. Because they force others to support their beliefs.

Absolutely. It’s not anti-trans (in fact that’s just an easy, cheap line to throw into a conversation as a diversion), rather it’s pro-reality. People can get about how ever they want, pretending to be whatever they want, but they can’t force other people to go along with that. If we stop questioning what we see, and start going along with what we’re being told, we head down a dangerous path.

I think it’s pretty rude to use pronouns in front of a person. It’s like they’re not there. Can’t you just use their name?

Unclear why it's confusing to the 11 year old?

Umm, many, many adults find it confusing ! 😄

Of course "he" can but no one else has to. OP I actually wouldn't worry too much about your 11 yo. I teach secondary and it seems to be receding as a trend and we are not teaching it as a given. I think it's bollocks too but I also believe in politeness and would focus on not alienating your son. It doesn't sound like he's in a great place generally and it's a positive he has a relationship so I'd probably not make a mountain out if this. It will quietly go away in it's own in time, one way or another.

If you insist on this you will lose your son - it's up to you what you prefer, your ideology around trans people OR saying he/him.

I would think there's no harm in saying to them that you find it difficult - and to say it's quite difficult to remember and just apologise every time you misgender them (or they correct you.)

But insisting on it will just mean that your son won't speak to you. I'm not saying I care for these pronouns, but if I was your son and my partner was trans, and I believed my partner and supported them and my parents did not, I'd be with my partner. Especially when they're young and the love is so strong.

Depends how militant she is about it. If she insists aggressively on male pronouns and she or DS kick up fuss about any non compliance to make a point, then I'd probably say it's better for her not to come. If it's something you can quietly ignore by using 'you' and her name to her face (as you would anyway) then I'd be inclined just to avoid the third person at all. If DS calls her he in her absence I'd say "Who, Laura?" and just continue with the name. I'd explain to younger DC that Laura is a girl who would prefer to be a boy so likes to be called he, but we can just call her Laura if that feels confusing.

Is your son’s partner your 11 year old’s mother? If not, I can’t fathom why you think this is a relevant question/ analogy.

correct, but I would edit:

it's up to you what you prefer, your ideology around trans people OR saying he/him your relationship with your son

That's actually what I had meant to say thank you!!!!!

Don’t ban her. Explain to your DC that she is a girl, but for some reason is pretending to be a boy. Stress she’s not a boy, will never be one, and that people can never change sex.

In her presence, use her name. If your son tries to purposely use lots of he/hims in reference to this girl, then you might have to push back a little by pointedly using her name instead.

TBH, I feel sorry for her. Although some teens do do this performatively, many others do it because of previous trauma, MH or anxiety.

You can do what you want in your own house

However, it will seriously damage your relationship with your son. Do you really want to do that?

Your daughter will come across trans/gender issues sooner or later. Why not use this time to talk to her about it. Something along the lines of "yes he uses he/him pronouns, but he's a girl" and that some people just prefer to use different pronouns