For not wanting my children to ‘learn’ Christianity?

[AmusedLemur]

I use learn loosely, I don’t mean learn, I mean be spoken to about God as if it is fact, when I myself do not believe.

context

I am an atheist. My husband was raised by a very catholic family, however he himself is not a practicing catholic (he doesn’t attended church, never prays, etc)

He says he does believe in a God, but it’s not something he lives his life by / he thinks about too regularly.

This has never been an issue for us because mainly we’re on the same page. Yes he will take his mother and father to church on Christmas Eve, but that is as about as religious as he gets.

Let me preface this by saying I have an amazing relationship with his family. I love them. We got married in a church to please them, and when we had our baby (Gia - 2) we got her Christened so they wouldn’t worry.

I have no problem with them talking about their love for God in front of me or anything like that. But, Gia is now of an age where she is taking things in. And they tell her that God is the reason she is here, to be thankful for him, he gave her life and everything she has. More has been said, but I’m not there when it is, so I’m not entirely sure what.

For a 2 year old, she obviously believes when her Grandmother tells her this and so comes home and asks me if I’ve thanked God, tells me she loves him, and so on and so forth.

I don’t want to correct Gia by saying God isn’t real, because it’s her choice to believe. But am I being unreasonable by not wanting my in laws to teach her that God is real from such a young age?

Your in-laws are indoctrinating her which isn't their place to do. They are really over-stepping here.

My ex-in-laws were religious and I wouldn't have dreamed about getting my children christened to please them. You can tell your daughter that grandma and grandad believe in God but mummy does not and you can tell her about other religions as well.

Religion is not faith. Faith is the belief in god.
religion is a set of rules and customs that those who have faith, believe in god follow.

its really important we learn about religion even if you don’t agree with any of it it’s about understanding people, their customs, beliefs etc just like history is important to understand why people do things, predictors of the future etc
Loads of people hate/ complain about religion and that’s absolutely fine but when you haven’t engaged and don’t understand anything about religion your argument falls flat.

Our laws and government are based on Christian principles so it really isn't too much for your daughter to understand some things about Christianity. It will help her make sense of a lot of customs, rules and laws. It helps her join in society and friendship groups but she will most likely grow up to practise the religion (or none) seen in your/her home.
Your daughter is not going to wake up one day and join a sect simply because she is searching for what a God is - Granny has already helped her recognise what a normal religion looks like. Safe religions are those which you are free to practise and free to leave. They practise kindness and respect to others.

Kids grow up learning road rules and seeing symbols, road signs and both courteous and dangerous drivers. They already know all about traffic before they decide whether to learn to drive or own a car. We don't blindfold our children from what is all around us.

I'm not really sure where we contradict as I absolutely agree - god is not property of one faith alone. Discuss them all if you wish. What's the problem?

You use words like brainwashing. Why would having faith mean being brainwashed?

In trying to protect a child from scary absolutes that don't really tend to happen...not in modern day uk anyway. Certainly not by simply mentioning god or discussing them. You possibly deprived someone of their right yo a relationship with god. Which they have. Whether you agree with it or not. Or believe in god or not.

You can be a religious bigot or an atheist bigot. Both things are shit. Don't let fear of one thing cause you to turn your child into the other.

Granny telling OP's daughter that the reason she is alive is "because of God" is not teaching her about religion, it's just brainwashing.

No need for grandparents to be saying things like that at all.

Our laws and government are NOT based on Christian principles! They might be based on reason and morality but that's nothing to do with Christianity or any religion.

But make no mistakes, telling children god isn't real is just as bad as telling them they HAVE to believe in a certain god.

It's still bigotry. It's still indoctrination. If a child feels sneered at or shamed for their beliefs, they close their minds off to these things.

I think lots of people are angry at organised religion and they take it out on their kids as a way of spiting a god they supposedly don't even believe in. And then those kids grow up with no interest in asking questions. And maybe thats fine. Maybe it suits them fine. Or maybe they become one of those assholes who come on threads like this and say 'god isn't real'.

Its really not.

Here is the Oxford dictionary definition of brainwashing: ' the process of pressurizing someone into adopting radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible means'.

Here's another
'Brainwashing is used to describe an abrupt, induced attitudinal change. Methods used to induce this change include isolation, monopolization, debilitation and exhaustion, drugs, torture, enforcement of routine, and hypnosis'

I think its fair to say that Granny is not doing any brainwashing. Unless OP has missed out the massive backstory of torturer Granny.

In fact, Granny is doing what all parents and grandparents do. She is talking to the child in terms of her value and belief systems. We literally all do this. All of us. Grand daughter is still exposed for most of her life to her parents atheistic values. All she is doing is being exposed to Granny's 'lived experience' of faith. That's not a bad thing. Its a world expanding thing.

So, she really only learns that Granny thinks and believes XXX. It is fine for a kid to know their Granny and how they think and what makes Granny tick.

The parents can reinforce - yes, that is what Granny thinks.
All things can be true (about how a child comes to be here) at the same time. Ask the child why they think they came to be here. Stress the differences you have; discuss fully, ernestly and robustly as the child grows older. It is healthy to debate and consider all.

I do think it’s important to learn about religions, so many things based/linked to it eg wars.

However since there is no proof that there is a god then it’s simply a matter of saying that some people believe in god and different religions have different gods but then I would say that I don’t believe in god and I don’t believe one exists. Presumably if your partner does believe then they would say the opposite so it’s then clear the child can just decide for themselves

Are you also going to tell Gia what a bloody hypocrite you are, along with the rest of your family? Generations of your family have been christened so you can have a knees up - but it's OK because you kept your fingers crossed behind your back! Yet you've started a thread bleating about your strong atheist convictions. For reference, I'm an agonostic. I would never have my child baptised in Christianity any more than I'd have them delcare the Shahada in Islam just so I could stuff my face with cake. Fucking hell you sound shallow and very confused.

Well a church wedding and a christening are both an acknowledgement of the existence of God, they happen in a church and the ceremonies are all about God 🙄 I really wouldn't worry too much about it, your daughter will make up her own mind in time. She will learn about all the major religions at school and will understand that not everyone believes the same. I was brought up a Catholic and I stopped going to church and participating in the religion when I was old enough to make my own mind up. My kids went to a local youth club at the Baptist Church which was pretty happy clappy and they enjoyed it. None of them are religious as adults.

Or their kids rebel, and become religious fanatics...

There are certainly a lot of people of a certain sort who come out when ever this type of thing comes up. Always very certain of their position but very insecure about how children will absorb a different view to them and deprive them of the opportunity to have someone parrot their view.

Don't be obtuse, it's pretty obvious what I meant when I used the term brainwashing.

And actively teaching a young child that she was made by God and should be thankful is not doing what all parents and grandparents do, at all. I have no problem with the fact that my parents believe in God when I don't, but we get along because when my kids go to visit them they don't feel the completely unnecessary need to talk to them about God and try to impose values on my kids that I don't align with. If they did, I would be asking them to cut it out.

So Granny is "brainwashing" and this is a huge threat, but her own son who she had far more control of his environment is agnostic?

So either it is not brainwashing, or Granny needs to invest in more equipment like better flashing lights and white noise machines?

Don't stress about it, you and your DH have a greater impact on your DD than anyone else (untill she's about 7!)

You need to have a chat with your DH. He needs to ask his parents to stop presenting God as fact to your DD. They will probably ignore him

But having done that, now every time they say something like
"God is the reason she is here, to be thankful for him, he gave her life and everything she has."
Either you or DH, whichever of you is around, follow it up with
"Well Grandma and grandad are Christians, so that's what they believe. Lots of people don't believe in God. Mummy doesn't. Other people believe in a different type of God. You're allowed to make up your own mind what you believe"

Say it in front of your inlaws. Every time.

Did I say it was a "huge threat"?

Nope, I didn't.

I simply said that I can understand why OP wouldn't like it and would maybe want to ask the woman to stop it. There is absolutely no need to tell a 2 year old that they were made by God and to encourage them to be thankful about it. None at all. That's not teaching them anything useful, it's just a clumsy attempt at indoctrination which, after all, is what religion relies on to get bums on seats.

I would not have got married in a church or christened my child as I do not believe in God. I have always been clear with my daughter we do not believe in God but faith is a personal thing and she can make her own mind up.

Loads of people go to church schools are aren’t converted! Your views will be stronger but don’t forget the RE syllabus will cover other religions too. This is a major part of society. It’s important to have a rounded view. I would also say parents should not expect their dc to follow them either. You are not in possession of their thoughts. So let dc discover what’s out there and stay neutral.

I think you are over worrying @AmusedLemur clearly it's possibly to be "taught" something at a young age, and come out the other side thinking and acting different - look at your DH.

Think about faith, versus belief.

I'm more eyebrow raisy about you professing to be an atheist however you agreed to a church wedding and a christening. You *really" compromised yourself there. Without an issue, evidently, which is why I think you need to relax, now.

LillyPJ, the Ten Commandments have influenced our legal systems a great deal. The other Two Commandments are the basis of respect and equality to others and so likewise influencial.
Our Head of State is also the head of a Christian Church.

We have opening prayers in Parliamant,in both houses. Our politicians swear an oath usually and traditionally on The Bible, and more recently on other religious books.

Other systems, such as Sharia law and Polygamy are illegal.

To become a Christian needs a conscious decision and willing action on the part of the individual. A two year old is not capable. Re the opening post, to learn about Christianity will no more make your child a Christian, than to learn about breast cancer will make them an oncologist. Just because Christianity does not fit into your world view, shouldn't make you fearful of learning about it. You are more likely to make your child more curious if you go on objecting to what granny says. At aged 2, it's all just grown-up word salad anyway.

Since when is talking about God, imposing values? Also you do know that ad Christians they are supposed to talk about God right? To discuss him. I suppose you could argue 'this is my child and I don't want it said to them'. Or, you could just not use your parents as free babysitting maybe?

You talk about respecting their faith... yet, you actually don't. Because most Christians feel they have a duty to introduce theur children and probably, grandchildren, to God. It's lucky that they have more respect for you than you do them.

Out of interest, what would be the harm of teaching a child to be thankful to something greater than the sum of themselves anyway? How us that harmful? If anything it teaches humility and thankfulness. Yes there are other ways to teach that but...it's hardly brainwashing.

Thats what I'm talking about, there seems to be this fundamental spite towards people for daring to practice theur beliefs.

My parents are Christians and whilst I'm more agnostic, I'd welcome them discussing God with my children. They have every right to. Just as as have every right to say 'I think differently'. So long as they are noy scaring or hurting the kid, or causing emotional distress I have no problem with it.

Conversation isn't brainwashing. And sometimes religion teaches useful moral lessons.

Yes its idea if grandparents ultimately defer to you. But you also wouldn't say 'you can't have Ramadan, my kids are visiting' and think that was you respecting their religion in return. Same thing goes for sharing their faith with others. If you don't like it and they won't meet you in the middle, withdraw the child. And respect their faith.

Luckily you're not in that situation. But the point I'm making is you're not really respecting theur belief if you are denying them a big part of their practice. Eg: talking about God with their grandkids.