For not wanting my children to ‘learn’ Christianity?

[AmusedLemur]

I use learn loosely, I don’t mean learn, I mean be spoken to about God as if it is fact, when I myself do not believe.

context

I am an atheist. My husband was raised by a very catholic family, however he himself is not a practicing catholic (he doesn’t attended church, never prays, etc)

He says he does believe in a God, but it’s not something he lives his life by / he thinks about too regularly.

This has never been an issue for us because mainly we’re on the same page. Yes he will take his mother and father to church on Christmas Eve, but that is as about as religious as he gets.

Let me preface this by saying I have an amazing relationship with his family. I love them. We got married in a church to please them, and when we had our baby (Gia - 2) we got her Christened so they wouldn’t worry.

I have no problem with them talking about their love for God in front of me or anything like that. But, Gia is now of an age where she is taking things in. And they tell her that God is the reason she is here, to be thankful for him, he gave her life and everything she has. More has been said, but I’m not there when it is, so I’m not entirely sure what.

For a 2 year old, she obviously believes when her Grandmother tells her this and so comes home and asks me if I’ve thanked God, tells me she loves him, and so on and so forth.

I don’t want to correct Gia by saying God isn’t real, because it’s her choice to believe. But am I being unreasonable by not wanting my in laws to teach her that God is real from such a young age?

The same must apply to Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, Thor, Ra, Vishnu, The Flying Spaghetti Monster (pbuh), Ukko, et al.

My parents could be like this. I shut that shit down fast. They do not need to go on about god in front of your child.

I really wouldn't worry about this. DH and I are both atheists. I don't mind going to church e.g. for school services as I enjoy the history and the community aspects, DH would have point blank refused to get married in a church or have DDs christened as he doesn't believe in god and would therefore not want to make any declarations or say any words with a religious connotation. TBH I do raise my eyebrows too at atheists having church weddings or christenings. It does feel a bit like you're appropriating something because you want pretty photographs.

However, DDs do attend a C of E primary school. DH was uncomfortable about it but it is our local, catchment school and is also excellent. DDs would both come home talking about God or Jesus but once DD1 turned 7 or so she declared she didn't believe anymore. I've always tried to give a balance of views e.g. "some people believe X but I believe Y" and that's exactly what you'll do as your daughter grows up. I certainly wouldn't disrupt a loving family relationship that she has with her grandparents due to them speaking about their beliefs. I think diversity of views is a great thing for children to grow up with and learn about.

So granny brought up her son 24/7 in a home that actively practised religion but he doesn’t have any great feelings on it (or he wouldn’t have married an atheist) and you are worried about your child because..?

if she didn’t indoctrinate her son what makes you think your daughter (who doesn’t live with them) will not also develop her own feelings and responses?

we are an atheist family. My sons best friend of 25yrs is a committed Christian, they respect each others beliefs and it’s never been an issue. You are trying to find problems before they are there. Teach your daughter that we all have the choice to believe what we like but believing something doesn’t necessarily make it true.

Oh I am sorry, did you not realise that words have meanings? Did you think you could use a word to mean something other than what is actually does and still convey what was in your mind?

Talking you a child within your own value system is normal. Its not anything pernicious. We all do it. All of us.

And actively teaching a young child that she was made by God and should be thankful is not doing what all parents and grandparents do, at all

This is a mindboggingly rigid interpretation from you. Surprisingly so for someone who is so flexible of mind that they they think they can use words to mean whatever they want them to. When I said we all do it, I was very clearly talking about we all bring our children up in our value systems and beliefs. We do not leave our children in a moral vacuum. We give them our values and morals to guide. No one talks about 'brainwashing' their child not to be racist or to view women as equal human beings to men, or that slavery is wrong, but these are still beliefs, and very recent ones too. Others will teach their children to have certain attitudes to animals or the environment. We all bring our children up in our values and beliefs systems.

Actively telling kids that they were "made by God" and "should be thankful to him" is absolutely imposing a value system that I do not agree with. I don't really care if Christians are "supposed" to talk about God. My kids, my rules, at least until the point where they are old enough to not just blindly believe in the idea of a God because their grandparents implanted it.

This is not the same at all as teaching kids about religion as a concept, which I do absolutely talk about with my kids.

And to answer this:

"Out of interest, what would be the harm of teaching a child to be thankful to something greater than the sum of themselves anyway? How us that harmful?"

Because, in my opinion, there isn't a "greater thing" that they should be thankful for. It's just a lie.

Do you teach your children its a lie?
Or do you discuss that different people have different beleifs to your own,

If you think your children should only be exposed to things that you think are true then they will have a very narrow childhood.

And its a lot more interesting and meaningful to be exposed to religion from believers than from atheists simply talking about it as an abstract concept.

Imagine trying to teach science without doing any experiments or literature without reading the original books - just the commentary on them.

Religion is one of my interests, its my degree and I have maintained an interest in it my whole life. I only really understand what it means to believers when I hear them talking about their faith, usually by listening to them talk to other people of the same faith. Most people in the world still believe in some sort of religion. It will expand the grand-daughters mind to have first hand experience of what belief means to someone. That's a good thing. its a good thing to have a better understanding of other people.

I am sorry, I'm not getting your argument.

I agree that there shouldn't be any "absolutes" presented to young children. (Not quite sure why the absence of a God might be considered "scary"?). That surely means no absolute statements about the existence of a God and no absolute statements about God not being real. No?

You are talking about the risk of depriving someone of their right to a relationship with God. I think I understand what you're saying here. By telling someone that God is not real, you feel that it would be denying someone the opportunity to make up their own mind?

But from my perspective, telling someone that there is a God is equally depriving people of the freedom that comes from not believing in one. And it is equally denying people the opportunity to make up their own mind.

You seem to be framing this in terms of faith being an essentially positive thing ("a gift") and atheism being an essentially negative thing ("taking something away"). I assume that this must be based on your own personal experiences. But some of us will have very different experiences, and we will see the freedom from religious belief as a positive experience in its own right. A "gift" if you like.

I think we agree on the fact that you can be a religious bigot or an atheist bigot. Both are shit as you say. I think we also agree on the idea that it's fine for people of all faiths and none to talk about their views.

However, I'm still not getting why you think it's OK for religious people to present their beliefs as facts but not OK for atheists to do the same. To me, that smacks of double standards and imposing your own value judgements on these different beliefs. Why can't all adults in a child's life simply couch their beliefs in terms of saying what they personally believe while acknowledging that different people will see things differently?

Well it's not a lie. Its something you don't believe in. Those aren't the same thing. Unless you've found a way to either prove or disprove God in a way that no one else is able to.

But if its something you don't believe in...a hookie cookie pseudoscience if you like...but it teaches them a good lesson, what's the harm?
Why does it scare you so much?

Surely it's no different to the cookie monster on sesame Street teaching them to tie their shoes.

And whilst I agree with you that it should be your kids your rules, ideally, do you also recognise that your parents religion might advocate them discussing their beliefs with their grandchildren. So, you may be saying you're OK with their faith...but in practice, you're not, really. You're only OK if they shut up about it. I mean, arguably not very fair is it.

No I cannot say my experience with organised religion is necessarily positive...though nothing terrible. Just, not...me. A little stifling overhand. But, I am thankful for it because without it I may never have had the introduction to faith. Which I am grateful for.

I believe that if you teach kids from a young age that there is nothing, they never believe in or look into... possibilities, they don't go looking, and therefore may miss out on something wonderful.

Telling them there is a god...opens them up to a world of possibility. They may grow and decide to believe differently, in different ways or in different gods. But it opens their world up, rather than shutting it down.

I don't think ops parents are some horrible clique church or cult or zealots lol so if anything, the kids get a nice introduction to a world of faith. And op can counter it with her own views and talking about other people's beliefs too.

It's not about right and wrong it's about opening up the world, to discussions, questions and maybe even a personal relationship with God if they find that path, which gives lots of people strength in tough times. VS shutting down these possibilities, curiosity, reason and if nothing else, an opportunity to learn about the beliefs of others, hopefully growing them into thoughtful, compassionate grown ups.

I'm all for opening up the world to possibilities. But presenting one faith as fact is not doing that imo. For me, that is "shutting down" other possibilities as much as telling a child that there is no god.

We will have to agree to disagree on this subject. You see raising a child with a specific faith as a positive thing because it opens up other possibilities. I don't share that view, and I know plenty of people for whom the experience of having been raised in a specific faith has actually been a negative and damaging force in their lives.

I do think it's good for children to be exposed to different faiths and to talk to people about what they believe. I just don't agree with privileging one world view over another.

There is nothing about being raised as an atheist that prevents spiritual exploration or becoming a thoughtful and compassionate adult by the way. Just as there is nothing about being raised in a particular religious tradition that guarantees these traits.

I think there is a nuance when adults discuss this that is being missed when her Grandparents talk to her. Not through malice but as their perspective is skewed by their beliefs.

I don't believe that telling children there is a god opens up possibilities, I think the universe has enough wonder without introducing mechanics to explain away the gaps.

I don't teach them it's a lie. I go along the usual lines of "some people believe this etc".

But I, personally and wholeheartedly think that the idea that there is a God is a complete and utter falsehood.

You really are determined to pick a fight with me, aren't you.

Carry on completely misrepresenting what I've said if you want, it's just funny at this point.

Are you under the impression you aren't in a discussion forum?

If you think I am ' picking a fight with you' rather than responding to points you and others make, then I am entertained by your egotism.

I don’t think you’re being unreasonable. But I wouldn’t worry too much. My MIL is religious. My kids asked to go to church with her a few times, I was fine with it. My children know I’m an atheist. Or, more specifically, I didn’t believe in god, because there is no proof of one. No proof of ANY of them. And there are many!

I’d be putting a stop to any talk of unbelievers going to hell though.

But realistically people don't tend to pursue faith if they are raised atheist. That's a blanket statement of course and it's fair to say that relationship with god is often a very private things so we might not know. People never really speak about god in the UK...it's become almost taboo in society. A relic of our grandparents time.

I believe an introduction to the idea of something greater than ourselves is healthy for a child. And if it comes in the form of something too rigid, the child can choose what they want from it later on. But if there's nothing... we tend not to bother looking later in life.

If your mother tells you there's nothing but spiderwebs in the attic to keep you out as a child...you probably don't want to go up there, even when you grow up. Because you've already filed it in your brain as 'I don't want to go up there'. But if you did, you might find treasured family heirlooms you never knew were there.

I think we in fear, close some of the world off to children. And in turn it can cause fear of the unknown, rigid beliefs and failure to grow in some ways.

I'd prefer the 'fixed religion' to the 'nothings real' lot. They'd at least hopefully produce something to push back against. You can't really push back against nothing and there's no incentive to grow in certain areas.

Thats why I was more than happy to do these things. Most of my friends children were christened, again for the party, but they didn’t do it for the religious side.

Then they shouldn't have had a religious ceremony "for the party". Ugh.

Honestly, the cognitive dissonance involved in getting married in a church, having your child religiously baptised and then complaining about her family talking shop to her.

I was raised in a very Catholic family, took part in all the rituals and ceremonies, went to RC schools - and have always been profoundly agnostic. Your daughter will make up her own mind regardless of what anyone says to her.

Oh, I'm fully aware, and as such I am just saying I can't be arsed to engage with you (rather than just ignore you) given what you are responding to is entirely imaginary and clearly agenda driven.

Clear enough?

Why say some 'supposedly' don't believe in a god? I don't believe - and won't until I see evidence for one. I'm not saying there isn't one but I can't believe it just because some people tell me there is. Meanwhile, I'll continue to ask questions. Why would that upset anyone?

I agree.

Obviously, being an atheist means not believing in a God.

But the absence of a belief in God is simply that. It doesn't preclude people from finding awe and wonder in the universe. It doesn't stop people from exploring spiritual practices such as meditation. It doesn't prevent people from developing strong moral philosophies etc. It doesn't get in the way of people discovering a strong sense of meaning and purpose in life. Why would it?

Many Buddhists don't believe in the existence of a God. If Buddhist parents chose to pass on their beliefs to their children, would you describe that as "shutting things down" or "taking something away"? If not, why is it any different?

Your child's religious/spiritual education is up to you and your husband to decide. That's a parent thing. You've already done things with her that do not jive with your own views.

Your MIL is indoctrinating your child with her brand of religion. She's proselytizing.

Now, I am not Christian and would consider that imposing her religious views on my child and I would have a talk with her and tell her to stop. She had her kids and taught them what she wanted. Time for her to step back.

P.S. thanks for calling me an asshole. Very Christian of you.

I'm sorry but all this is entirely coming from your own imagination. FYI I wasn't even aware you were one person I was responding to - I don't really look at user names. I was just responding to individual posts.

If you want to stop engaging with me, just stop. No need for dramatic announcements. I wouldn't have even noticed you had stopped engaging.