For not wanting my children to ‘learn’ Christianity?

[AmusedLemur]

I use learn loosely, I don’t mean learn, I mean be spoken to about God as if it is fact, when I myself do not believe.

context

I am an atheist. My husband was raised by a very catholic family, however he himself is not a practicing catholic (he doesn’t attended church, never prays, etc)

He says he does believe in a God, but it’s not something he lives his life by / he thinks about too regularly.

This has never been an issue for us because mainly we’re on the same page. Yes he will take his mother and father to church on Christmas Eve, but that is as about as religious as he gets.

Let me preface this by saying I have an amazing relationship with his family. I love them. We got married in a church to please them, and when we had our baby (Gia - 2) we got her Christened so they wouldn’t worry.

I have no problem with them talking about their love for God in front of me or anything like that. But, Gia is now of an age where she is taking things in. And they tell her that God is the reason she is here, to be thankful for him, he gave her life and everything she has. More has been said, but I’m not there when it is, so I’m not entirely sure what.

For a 2 year old, she obviously believes when her Grandmother tells her this and so comes home and asks me if I’ve thanked God, tells me she loves him, and so on and so forth.

I don’t want to correct Gia by saying God isn’t real, because it’s her choice to believe. But am I being unreasonable by not wanting my in laws to teach her that God is real from such a young age?

I disagree, I think you do need to accept that. You are not clear in your post if you banned the in-laws from talking about their beliefs. And the fact that you say you talk to your children about their grandparents beliefs suggests you never did.

When I said OP needs to 'accept it' I meant she needs to accept the in-laws will talk to the children about their faith. Their faith is their whole worldview. Its unreasonable to stop them talking about it to the children.

She can talk however to her children about her views, or, as you did, what you think of the grandparents views.

See this goes the other way too surely?

I married a man who is not practicing, and he married into a non - religious family - with no objection from his parents.

They wanted us to marry in a church and asked us to christen her, which I did. Because I respect them.

However they should respect that their son married an atheist woman, no? And they should see that yes, I am willing to change some of my ways to keep them happy. But they know I ultimately do not believe.

Surely they should respect this is my child, and I will speak to her about God when I deem she is ready.

You had your child Christened where you would have stated you will bring your child up in that faith (you were obviously lying). But your in-laws are taking on that role.

DH and I went to a Christening the other week (not godparents). We didn’t join in with any of the responses as we won’t be helping bringing up the child in the faith. We won’t be anti the faith when around the child but won’t be actively encouraging the faith

No, I know you haven’t. And I’m agreeing with you that I’d be asking your child’s grandparents to back off a bit with the God stuff. (

I suspect my MIL actually surreptitiously baptised DS the first time she got him alone (not often as we were living in different countries) — you are allowed to do it as a lay person if you believe a soul is ‘in danger’! I have a faint memory of arriving back to a damp-haired and unimpressed pre-verbal DS. It’s either mildly annoying or hilarious, depending on perspective. I say this just so you know it does occur to some peoole. My own mother admits to considering it but says she knew I’d freak.)

To be fair, I don't think a two year old knows what an opinion is! You also aren't going to convince your in-laws that they should talk to her about God in a neutral way because that is not what they believe.

I think your best approach is to encourage her to think about things herself - at 2 she won't take a lot in, but a foundation of critical thinking will stand her in good stead all her life - and to expose her to experiences and knowledge as she grows. She will then make her own decisions as and when she wants to. Those may even change over her lifetime.

Bear in mind that right now, in her head, Rapunzel and the Wicked Witch of the North are also real - believing in things that you do not see or do not exist is perfectly natural and part of growing up.

The amount of dc that have been brought up Christian whi then tutn out to be atheist or agnostic or even change religion makes me think you're being unreasonable. Christianity is a part of our culture, our past and traditions. No harm.in learning about it.

I can't think of anything madder than disrupting a relationship with a child and relatives who love and care for them, simply to stop them from talking about their beliefs about the world with the child.

Do you really think being exposed to a diversity of views about the world is so awful, that you would sacrifice a loving and nurturing relationship with your child to stop it? Is diversity of people and thought so terrifying to you that you would do this? Really?

I think being exposed to diversity of thoughts and ideas and people is really important. A narrow insular society is not a good one.

You chose church marriage and christening. Maybe it lead them to believe you want her raised in belief? Do they know it was a compromise but you don't want to continue in this direction?

I don't expect they would stop without a good talk. They might not stop even after that.

“While it's difficult to pinpoint an exact number, a significant, though declining, number of non-religious families in the UK still choose to have their children christened or baptized, often viewing it as a celebration of family and a welcome into the community rather than a purely religious act. “

^^ This is exactly what I treat it as, whilst knowing it will keep her grandparents happy. I expressed to them this wasn’t a religious act for me, but rather a tradition. As everyone in my atheist family is christened.

Sorry if that was harsh! It’s just not a rabbit hole I want this thread to go down! Religion is verrry tricky topic.

I appreciate your opinion and thank you for your advice.

Unless they are seeking to ban you from exposing your child to your atheist world view, then surely it is going both ways from them?

They talk to their grandchild about how they see the world and you talk to your child about how you see the world.
Being exposed to different ways of understanding the world is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I see both sides to this. Also an atheist and a single mum, who spent a lot of time making sure I didn't let DC think love was something magical that isn't clearly demonstrated - I didn't want them letting men walk all over them like their father without giving anything other than the words "love you" with no action. Picked CofE and within 2 days they came back singing "JESUS LOVES ME!" excitedly in the car. At the time I was quite annoyed as it was a sensitive topic in our family. However, and this is the important bit, for a lot of those families they had no other moral compass offered. Religion at school was the only way they could explain why hitting was bad, being kind to others was good, how we look after each other and form community, etc. It's very sad that huge parts of society still need religion to teach these morality basics, but arguably this should be encouraged if we don't want the themes from Adolesence to be ever more present. FWIW DC don't believe in god but are now aware of multiple religions and can discuss pro-cons of most of them. It does help debate.

@AmusedLemur you can have a naming ceremony rather than a Christening, that is what we did.

What did you do when the vicar/priest asked if you were going to bring up the child in the faith, say 'no'?

I do think you're being unreasonable OP.

Irregardless of the debate about whether religion is fact or opinion - to your in laws it is fact. And its how they live their life and they see this as them trying to be the best grandparents they can be to your child. I think you need to accept that this will be an influence your child has in their life but you are also able to discuss your own thoughts and feelings on it openly.

I think for me it's interesting that you say you want your child to make up their own mind when they're older, but you also don't want them exposed to the other side of the coin that may inform that decision.

I'm a Christian but I'm very Liberal and often at ends with certain stances taken by some churches. My parents idolise their minister and take his word as gospel. I know they're going to teach my ds (also 2) things that don't sit great with me, but I also know I'm going to raise him to question things and to see a different viewpoint. As he gets older and becomes his own person he'll form his own opinion.

I think your child is lucky to have the exposure of people around them who disagree but still love and respect each other. What a brilliant life skill to learn from an early age.

it is illogical but almost universal that those that believe in a religion are entitled to bring up their children as if it it “true” but atheists are only allowed to suggest that there are “different” beliefs and the child can make up their own mind!

When she's old enough to understand, just make it clear to her that's what granny, grandad and some other people believe. You think differently, and explain to her in child friendly terms what you think. And then let her know that it is up to her as she gets older to learn more if she wants to and make her own mind up.

As stated, it’s also a tradition in my family although without religious connotations.

Generations of my family have answered yes to that question with their fingers crossed, sort to speak.

Don’t be mistaken, my PIL were under no false impression of why I was doing it. I have never lied to them about my beliefs and have been very open and honest. They know we have no plans to raise our children religiously, and they know neither of us practice religion. They know why I had a christening. They have never been misled.

I wouldn't sweat. Me and my husband are non-believers, to the point where i couldn't possibly have got married in a church or had my children christened because I would feel ridiculous saying the words and promising to a god I don't believe in. Like a previous poster, my children are at a CofE school and learn all about Christianity and pray in assemblies. They are taught as if God is real and for the first 3-4 years both my girls were firm believers; one even wanted to be baptised! We told her of course if she still wanted to when she was 12. We also responded 'that's nice' to stories about God or Jesus. Or used it to our advantage to support good behaviours such as 'isn't it good that the bible tells us to be kind to each other'. By year 4 both delared the notion of god unlikely if not impossible. This has come from their own opinion. In our modern, western and secular world it is a rare child brought up in an atheist family who will end up believing in God.

All of us bring our children up in our core belief systems. Its not only impossible to avoid this, its also undesirable. Children cannot exist in a vacuum of endless possibility and choice. They need the adult in their life to provide scaffolding to how they understand and should act in the world. As they grow older they can choose to accept this scaffolding or reject it and build their own. The job of parents is to accept it if they make a different choice.

And btw, doubt is built into Christianity. Christians I know are very comfortable talking about doubt. A lot more so that my strongly identified atheist friends are about their worldview.

I have read why OP did the christening but I still think it muddied the waters. Even the church wedding, to a lesser degree (I am aware that lots of people get married in a church).

Aren’t you effectively promising to bring the child up within that faith when you have the christening? And that’s happened in front of an audience of family members who are highly invested in that happening?

My child will not be brought up in that faith despite their grandparents wishes so there will not be a church ceremony. If my child chooses to do these things later in her life then that’s absolutely her choice.

If anything, I think putting boundaries down and not play acting along is more respectful to my in-laws than to give them a false sense that I’m raising my child as a Christian.

To them it is fact. To you it isn’t. You are both correct.

Well, not really.

Christians I know are very comfortable talking about doubt.

I don't find any religious people to be comfortable talking about doubt.

We got married in church & had our child christened purely to appease my husbands family who are very religious. He considers himself atheist now but due to a very strict upbringing is actually quite anti-religion.
He would absolutely tell our daughter that god isn't real if she'd been talked to about it by his family.

I'd probably just say that god is a person from a story that some people believe in and some people don't.

You can't really control what your husbands family talk to your child about, especially if they have unsupervised time with her so you're not able to direct the conversation or intervene at the time so you have to decide the stance you're going to take with your daughter when she talks about it with you.
We only have 1 religious person in our life who sees our child regularly and she buys baby bible books etc, and I treat it like any other story book if my daughter chooses to read them.
When she's older if my husbands family try to talk about some of their personal/religious beliefs that we strongly disagree with then we will make sure to intervene.

Anyway, I've thought about this a bit more.

I heard a child development expert ( scientist, not a self -styled expert but one who actually studies and understands the science of child development) talking and she was asked ' what gift should you give a one year old on their birthday?' Her reply was, ' have everyone who loves that child most there on the day.'

The greatest gift you can give to any child is to surround them with the people who love them most. That will give them the great gift of going through the world with the inner security of knowing they are lovable and loved. It will form their brains in all sorts of good ways that will stand them in great stead in life.

This is what is important about their grandparents.

Don't form a rupture for the sake of restricting your child's access to alternative viewpoints. That they are getting the benefit of being loved is what is most important.

I felt like the church marriage and the Christening has given them the impression you're ok with them indoctrinating your kids.

You e kind of set yourself up for this (I know you were it trying to be accommodating).