For not wanting my children to ‘learn’ Christianity?

[AmusedLemur]

I use learn loosely, I don’t mean learn, I mean be spoken to about God as if it is fact, when I myself do not believe.

context

I am an atheist. My husband was raised by a very catholic family, however he himself is not a practicing catholic (he doesn’t attended church, never prays, etc)

He says he does believe in a God, but it’s not something he lives his life by / he thinks about too regularly.

This has never been an issue for us because mainly we’re on the same page. Yes he will take his mother and father to church on Christmas Eve, but that is as about as religious as he gets.

Let me preface this by saying I have an amazing relationship with his family. I love them. We got married in a church to please them, and when we had our baby (Gia - 2) we got her Christened so they wouldn’t worry.

I have no problem with them talking about their love for God in front of me or anything like that. But, Gia is now of an age where she is taking things in. And they tell her that God is the reason she is here, to be thankful for him, he gave her life and everything she has. More has been said, but I’m not there when it is, so I’m not entirely sure what.

For a 2 year old, she obviously believes when her Grandmother tells her this and so comes home and asks me if I’ve thanked God, tells me she loves him, and so on and so forth.

I don’t want to correct Gia by saying God isn’t real, because it’s her choice to believe. But am I being unreasonable by not wanting my in laws to teach her that God is real from such a young age?

Well, OP would not be the first to cave to the immense family and institutional pressure.

You can't not baptise, because you get granny wailing about the child's soul (I am aware of official church stances, but this is what relatives do. I have experienced it).

You can't cave and allow the christening, because although beliefs are personal, conpletingva christening now controls what you tell your child.

You can't win.

Oh, on "raising the child in the faith" - does that mean encouraging questioning and independent thought, as claimed by a pp? Or does it mean telling a child that there is a deity, and that this is just how it is, and should be just accepted? Because you can't have it both ways.

YABU. As a lapsed Catholic who doesn’t believe in God, it’s absolutely crucial that if you want your children to learn all they can about tolerance and how different people all over the world are, they learn about religion. Nobody tells kids in a RE class the Christina gods are The Real Ones

There’s are difference between being taught and being told

Well yes in no RE teacher is teaching all religions but teaching that a Christian God is real

@LameBorzoi Oh, on "raising the child in the faith" - does that mean encouraging questioning and independent thought, as claimed by a pp? Or does it mean telling a child that there is a deity, and that this is just how it is, and should be just accepted? Because you can't have it both ways.

I can't answer your question because I didn't marry a Catholic. So I don't know what exact obligations are put on the Catholic party in a "mixed marriage".

@LameBorzoi You can't not baptise, because you get granny wailing about the child's soul (I am aware of official church stances, but this is what relatives do. I have experienced it).
You can't cave and allow the christening, because although beliefs are personal, conpleting a christening now controls what you tell your child.

To quote Keir Starmer "sometimes difficult decisions have to be made."

The underlying question is "do you live your life to your own principles or live it to please others" ?

Other people can come and go but at the end of the day you have to live with yourself.

God. Santa, the Tooth Fairy. The Easter Bunny.

At two years old, not everything we are told, is a forever thing.

Oh, I can live with myself just fine.

Why so defensive ?🤔

I wasn't meaning you.

It was a general comment.

That's totally self-inflicted by the church.

It's common that a religion covering significant part of the population in the area, in Europe it means christian denominations together, is trying to remain relevant and keep the numbers by keeping "everyone in". One of the tools is enmeshing religious and cultural, making sure that "marriage" means "church marriage" not only for faith reasons but also from cultural/traditional point if view. Similarly, the church prefers to baptise a child of parents with very lukewarm faith, because it keeps the door open and numbers up, while refusing would be the end.

Yes, different priests can be more or less strict, but in general it is a thing and religious organisations aren't falling backwards to stop it.

@fiveIsNewOne That's totally self-inflicted by the church.

I don't understand this statement that makes no sense. Either something is "self inflicted" or "inflicted by the church" - it can't be both !

I don't know what happens in other parts of Europe (which isn't relevant to UK anyway) but I would dispute that UK has a "cultural expectation" that marriage has to be faith based.

In 2022 17% of marriages were religious and 83% civil.

There has been an exponential rise in Wedding Venues in UK.
Specifically,"Bridebook" now lists 7,311 venues. The market has been growing, with a rise in dedicated licensed wedding venues, increasing by 473 venues since 2017 making a 162% growth since 2017.

In 2021 20% of weddings took place abroad due to the rise in popularity of "Destination Weddings".

Disclaimer - I can't find any information as to whether these figures I have quoted include Mormon Weddings, Unitarian Weddings, those for Plymouth Brethren, Jehovah's Witnesses, Quakers and Seventh Day Adventists.

It means that the church brought it on itself :)

I don't mean "expectation" in a meaning "majority", but built into the culture in a way that for a relevant proportion of population the church marriage means nice marriage, traditional marriage and they want it/accept it for cultural reasons, not for faith reasons.

Ok, 17% now, but it seems that in 90s it was still a half? That isn't that long time ago for this to remain in some parts of the population for one generation longer.

The OP says it - in her family christening is cultural thing for generations, not a faith thing.

And the churches know it and don't fight that hard to stop it, the same way how church doesn't fight people who miraculously find faith for school applications reason.

In my country (EU, very low religiosity in general), all churches are willing to marry a pair with one fiancee baptisted (half of the catholic marriages here are one baptised one not) . Many priests/pastors will marry a pair with no faith at all. They see it as an outreach program a way to keep some relevance in a broader society.
The attitude of my friends who had church marriage without any faith matches the OP's - just a words, bible reading sounds traditional. Sometimes the really religious people are horrified by that and don't understand it, but it is a reality for a few percent of the marrying population.

@fiveIsNewOne

And the churches know it and don't fight that hard to stop it, the same way how church doesn't fight people who miraculously find faith for school applications reason.

Would you rather they did "fight it"? And how would you like them to do that?

We have freedom of religion in this country (UK) and stopped burning people at the stake for not being Catholic/Protestant in the 17th Century.. The last person burned at the stake in England for heresy was Edward Wightman, who was executed at Lichfield on April 11, 1612. Wightman was a radical Anabaptist minister.

In Islamic countries the punishment for apostasy (leaving the faith) is death. That certainly "keeps them all in" as you put it 🙄

I still don't understand what you mean by "the church brought it on itself ".

The post I reacted to was about OP being "disrespectful" to grandparent's religion by going through the ceremonies without the faith, seeing them as cultural and "just a words".

My position is, that this isn't about the OP sneakily deceiving the unaware church, but a situation the church is perfectly aware of, situation the church worked on creating and that the church prefers to have those "cultural" marriages and baptisms over not having them. The church (loosely used for different branches of Christianity ) is bringing the ceremonies from other than devouted faith reasons on itself.

@fiveIsNewOne
You allude to "Cultural Christianity".
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, as to me it's an oxymoron.
I know people who call themselves Christians, but they in no way follow the Bible or the morals in it. They follow a secular morality, but were raised Christian.
There's people who are spiritual and follow secular morals, but consider themselves Christian.
A lot of people don't actually know what's in the Bible and developed their own morals away from it.
So I'm not really clear what you mean by "Culturally Christian"?

I'm confused now, because it really isn't a complicated concept.

People who don't (actively) believe in god, but want/don't mind selected christian institutions and ceremonies because they see them as traditional, dignified, good manners, social event and so on.

Non religious people singing christmas carols with all the hallelujah's there.
People like OP getting the child christened for family/tradition.
People helping at a village's vicariate garden, because it is a social institution of their area and they like meeting neighbours.
People like my SIL getting married by a priest with some bible readings when she is agnostic at the very least, but feels having a bible at a marriage is a nice tradition and the rest are just words.

@fiveIsNewOne I'm confused now, because it really isn't a complicated concept.

That may be your opinion but others may need clarification. Hence my question.

The examples you have given are not all of the same "weight". Operating the Wellie Throwing competition at the Church fete is no way comparable to a Wedding or a Christening.
The latter are Sacraments, wellie throwing, making tea, singing carols, and Pinning-the-Tail-on-the-Donkey are not.

A Priest in the Catholic Church will not bestow a Sacrament on an individual unless he believes there is good faith being shown on behalf of the individual {or in the case of a child their parents/legal guardian(s)}
A Priest is not a mind reader and cannot know if an individual is being honest or not - that is between that person and God.

Catholic baptism preparation typically involves counseling sessions, either individually or in groups, to help individuals and their families understand the sacrament's significance and their role in it. These sessions often include discussions about faith, the role of godparents, and the commitment to raising a child in the Catholic faith.

Also prior to a Wedding in the Catholic Church couples need to undergo a Pre-Cana to make them aware of their responsibilities to each other and any children created by the Marriage.
Mixed marriage requires that the non-Catholic party understand and agree to the Catholic understanding of marriage.
The Catholic party must agree to remain Catholic and do all in his or her power to baptize and raise the children of the marriage as Catholics. The non-Catholic party must be made aware of these promises.

The OP cannot claim to be unaware of these requirements and has basically created this problem.

I can understand that - but atheism is a growing community - I’m actually in spaces where it’s so much harder to have a faith because it comes across “loony”.

Plus the child is so so young, grandma being super religious will be a memory that they have in the future once they’ve chosen if they want a faith or not.

But what I’m saying is that everything starts from home anyway - if you actively choose to not teach your child or at least share your beliefs with your child or share the fact that there are many beliefs and your household values/mantra/thing is that it’s important to learn about everything - then this is what you should be telling your child. and you cannot be surprised when other people are sharing their religion, and your child is trying it out - because you’ve told us that you are open for her to decide when she is older. So some exposure is just part of that journey. Surely?

However if your child knows “at home we are not religious, but mummy and daddy said I can choose when I’m older” then your child will react differently. But it doesn’t seem like you’ve shared your thoughts with your child - so now that they are asking if you pray or whatever - there’s almost this sense of guilt - but you should be able to say “mummy doesn’t pray” - why is it hard for you to be open about what you believe? And the only explanation I have is perhaps OP and husband fear that the in laws will find out they are not practicing and maybe childcare or the relationship is at jeapordy? I don’t know - I’ve made up the last part - but there is a resistance from OP that needs to be unpacked.

We always assume children are very clueless, but they do have a level of intelligence and adaptability - which of course is dangerous as they can believe anything, but if there are rules, they will remember.

I hope it makes sense. OP can’t have it both ways - you can’t sit back and tell your child absolutly nothing - whilst being surprised when others are imposing their faith - the alternative is to remove your child from that situation which I have done a few times when I have been worried about what my child is picking up from this environment.

After all - one who stands for nothing, falls for everything.

@theprincessthepea atheism is a growing community

Maybe so, but the Chinese Church is now the fastest-growing Church in the UK, according to a new report from Bible Society. It has seen a 28.8 per cent growth in the last two years. The growth is happening largely in Cantonese congregations, boosted by people emigrating from Hong Kong to the UK since 2021.

If the Christening was performed “for fun” then there’s no harm in Gia thanking God before a meal etc at MIL’s house (being Catholic “for fun”) and not doing it at your house and your mother’s house.

I suspect that your MIL is happy that she’s christened but has either forgotten that it was “for fun” or always planned to teach Gia about the Catholic faith. Do you plan to send her to a religious school and get her confirmed etc later ? I think that you might need a plan of where the religious boundaries are like would you allow Gia to attend Church services with her grandmother r just at Christmas/Easter?

It has exactly the same weight for the non-faith people. A promise concerning god doesn't mean anything if you don't believe that the other party (god) exists.

The level of diligence and preparation chrisitian churches requires differ significantly.

The OP didn't create any problem, she just went through the ceremonies common in her culture making the right noises. She discussed this with her husband's family who prefer that over nothing.

Of course the chrisitian branches know it is the case, and having the choice between having having those children baptisted and not having them at all.

My region is probably slightly extreme (elsewhere in EU), but 50% of catholic church marriages here are one catholic person and one non catholic, mostly non-faith, and the catholic church is quite open that they don't push it, because it gives them a hope that the children might be raised in connection with faith.

Given how the Catholic schools work in the UK, they are absolutely aware that some people deal with them for other reasons than faith.

@fiveIsNewOne The OP didn't create any problem, she just went through the ceremonies common in her culture making the right noises.

"making the right noises! Hmmm.🤔

So basically she and her fiance/husband lied to the Priest about their intentions, which is what I suspected.

If she had been honest and said during the 6 weeks of pre-Cana lessons "I don't believe a word of it - it's all words/garbage and my husband feels the same. He's going to promise to raise any children we have in the Faith and then not follow through. We're just doing all this to please his mother" then no Priest worth his Biretta would have married them.
Ditto the Christening.

She discussed this with her husband's family who prefer that over nothing.

You have no idea what was said or not said and what that family "preferred". OP says that grandma was OK with it, but it seems the memo hasn't got through because Grandma wants to teach DC about religion.

Of course the chrisitian branches know it is the case, and having the choice between having having those children baptisted and not having them at all.

That is incorrect. You are suggesting that Priests know who is genuine and who isn't? Priests don't judge and take people at face value.
Of course if a priest has genuine concerns about the individual not acting in good faith, then they can withhold a Sacrament

I wish OP luck, because in the future she'll have to explain to her daughter as to why some promises need to be kept and some don't.🙄

@Snorlaxo Do you plan to send her to a religious school and get her confirmed etc later ? I think that you might need a plan of where the religious boundaries are like would you allow Gia to attend Church services with her grandmother r just at Christmas/Easter?

These are a very good points for OP to ponder.

OP needs to bear in mind that a Priest could legitimately question the proper disposition of someone asking for confirmation who fails to regularly attend Mass, explicitly denies the faith, expresses desire not to be confirmed, displays an exaggerated ignorance of the faith, or other similar actions.

In addition this might cause problems;
SPONSORS
Canon 892
Insofar as possible, there is to be a sponsor for the person to be confirmed; the sponsor is to take care that the confirmed person behaves as a true witness of Christ and faithfully fulfills the obligations inherent in this sacrament.

So it appears that one of OPs atheist friends just won't 'cut the mustard' in this situation.....and down the rabbit hole we go🙄