Why is ND a common excuse for poor behaviour now?

[PonderingCarefully]

To be clear, this isn't a bashing thread as I'm generally interested in views and reasonings. Posting here for traffic really.

I get ND is a huge thing now and way more people are being vocal about it being accepted in society. This i am in favour of but.... so often now, especially on MN/SM, you see people excusing or questioning if poor behaviour is a result of undiagnosed ND. For example, a partner withdrawing/saying hurtful things would usually be seen as abuse now it's are they on the spectrum? A friend who's taking advantage is no longer seen as a entitled CF but is said to need more patience incase they are ND.

Why is this? Is it now a society norm that you actually need to feel quilted into accepting this behaviour just incase there's something undiagnosed at play? Are we now going to start seeing abusers and bully's in a new light of "maybe it's not their fault" now?

I have rarely or never seen ND used as an excuse for bad behaviour: possibly by defence lawyers in some criminal cases, but they will bring up anything that is available.

Assuming that you mean real bad behaviour and are not classing inability to work full-time, need for adaptations or lack of so-called 'resilience' as bad behaviour.

By contrast, I have often seen 'I was under stress' used as an excuse for bad behaviour.

In my experience, those with genuine autism or adhd, are very quiet about it. They don’t ever use it as an excuse and will mask to the point of making themselves ill.
I absolutely see it on threads though “maybe that person is nd”. I think people need a reason to explain behaviour they do not understand. It’s insulting for those who are actually nd.

Why is being verbal the only thing being focused on as severe on MN?

Going by the criteria below my daughter is most definitely the most severe and she’s verbal. Her siblings can fluctuate and can become non verbal. You can’t categorise autism.

They use three levels in America
So people diagnosed with level 1 autism would require minimal support and are usually sble to care for themselves have relationships ,have children etc
People disgnosed with level 2 autism would ususlly need moderste support but can often fuction well with that support
And those disgnosd with level 3 would need full 1:1 support at all times and can only function in a very limited capacity
Obviously ,its not a perfect tool and i imagine some people will fall between levels.

Its not ,but it csn be a big part of it when someone cant communicate in any meaningful way at all

I have never ever once come across someone saying 'OP, do you think your child is ND?' and disagreed with it. Never.

What's happening, is the posts being posted are triggering because they highlight ONLY difficult behaviour the poster is experiencing.

Nearly every time, someone will be frustrated that bad behaviour is being aligned with autism. It is not what's happening. I'm in most these parenting threads.

What's happening, is experienced parents living this are offering support and encouraging people to stop believing in stereotypes and understand where some difficult behaviour is coming from; that there are cues in their post to Neurodivergence. Then how to help manage it and turn it around for a better life for everyone.

I have personal lived experience with NT abusive adults. I also have an Autistic/PDA child. I am NT. Other parent ND.

It isn’t the same thing.

Your comparison of a ND person and a wheelchair user is based on assumptions that a ND person has zero control over their behaviours or the way they act around others. That’s often not the case now, is it?

But if anyone dare disapprove or criticise them for say, throwing things in a shop, damaging their property or hurting their child, people like you can’t accept that the person who caused the harm could help it. And that mindset contributes to the learned helplessness that we see so often in older kids/young adults with ND who think they’ll never contribute anything to society, because everything is out of their control. Like they’re just a passenger in their own life because they have a condition.

If someone is in a wheelchair with no use of their legs, for example, then it’s bloody obvious that they cannot take measures or learn techniques or learn coping techniques in order to make their legs work.

Hence the blatantly unfair comparison. 🙄

I thoroughly agree with this point. I have ADHD, diagnosed and medicated as a 49 year old woman. I had always felt 'different' or 'wrong' but am the queen of masking. I have never been considered badly behaved by anyone.

While discussing the diagnosis with my mother, she reckoned she'd never noticed that I'd had any difficulty with life, and that was quite soul destroying because she's right - I masked incredibly well, I'm a high achiever, I managed to fit in but what kills me is that even my mother never noticed what it cost me! God it was hard. Permanent, never having a moment's break hard, hard, painful work.

Now I'm medicated and life is so much easier, I can absolutely understand why some undiagnosed and unmedicated people with the same condition could or would 'behave badly'. Not everyone can keep it up like I did - I don't know how I did and I don't think I could again, should I have to come off my medication for some reason. I just don't think I could do what I need to to 'fit in' again. I can understand meltdowns, burnout, losing control or whatever you want to call it that results in unacceptable behaviour.

No, not everyone who abuses or is rude or otherwise unpleasant is neurodiverse, but I think there is a strong chance that plenty are and for whatever reason never managed to find the coping skills I did.

The answer isn't to excuse the behaviour. It has to come earlier in the form of a societal change that makes it possible to spot those who are struggling, masking, who need help, who maybe need medicating. I don't have the answers to how to make this happen but I can certainly see why those who have had their eyes opened now wonder about others.

I should add though, the people who have to live with this behaviour shouldn't have to put up with it. Maybe the perpetrator needs help and support, but no-one should have to feel unsafe around them.

Please forgive me if I have you confused with another poster but from previous comments isn't your daughter suffering badly with mental health, which is linked to her autism? If so this is a horrific situation and I truly hope she gets the help and support she needs.

From what you've wrote your daughter differs to what I would refer to as someone with serve autism because she is verbal and obviously has a great deal of understanding. She presents differently to someone who would be classed as profound/severly impacted by their autism. Both very serious conditions and needing high levels of support but different.

I wonder if this is part of the issue. It used to be that people with aspergers didn't always recieve the support they needed or their dx taken seriously because it wasn't seen as autism (part of the reason the dx was expanded). So now people are referring to profound/severe there is pressure to kind of justify the dx.

As a separate issue, I agree with people being helpless and using autism as an identity. The push for the social model of disability (people are disabled by their environment) rather than the medical model reflects that too I think. "It's not my fault, the world should adapt to me" or "the world is designed for nt people so I can't....." rather than trying to adjust.

The biggest issue that schools are facing currently is that badly behaved children are given free reign to act how they please because they are ND.

Parents are not firm, have no boundaries, give no punishments and then use ND as their excuse.

There will of course, be a tiny proportion of children with ND who are unable to understand, but the majority of these children will already be in specialist schools.

There maybe some ineffectual parenting,and some parents mighr well use their childs ND diagnosis as an excuse
But on the other hand there are also kids who wouldnt meet the criteria for most special schools ,but struggle to cope in mainstream too.

This is largely true, I think.

How many teachers have posted on here saying that they’re not allowed to raise their voice, say no, tell someone off, remove them from a class or put any punishment in place because “the mother says these things trigger him”.

Meanwhile the NT kids and ND kids with anxiety, social phobias, fear of loud noise and issues with tolerating breaks to their routine sit in the same class with this madness going on, their education further compromised and no means of escape because the disruptive one’s Mum will be on the warpath if a teacher steps in against her kid.

Some of those ND kids anxiety etc will be the ones with behaviour not seemed as undesirable due to needs not being met. They can’t just sit on ND and encouraging masking is a very dangerous thing to do.

Seems like people just need to communicate more, regardless of (possible) neurological differences. If your partner is overwhelmed/too emotional to have a discussion with you, they can just say so and ask to return to it later. It's okay to give them that space. If they don't ever come back to it though... either seek couples therapy or leave, cuz you can't just run away from discussions like that all the time.

If your spouse says something hurtful (autistic people can be blunt or not understand why something is offensive) you can tell them "That hurt my feelings" and explain why. If they're a good partner, they'll listen to you and be mindful of it later, and it really helps ND people to understand when you explain. If they don't make an effort not to say things like that again... then they're just a jerk. Same with a friend you feel is taking advantage of you.

Perzival my daughter would fit your definition of mild autism which has caused (via school) severe mental health problems, I don't think that takes away from the disabling nature of her sensory sensitivities and various other problems. Any levels are of course approximate and some children appear to have severe autism and grow up to have mild or moderate autism, but to pretend you can't differential at all is to deny the obvious.

On a different note I'd love to know how all these neurodiverse people are getting all these unfair accommodations, allowances and resources? We haven't had any of that at all!

Autistic people without a learning disability are 7 times more likely than NT people to attempt suicide. That’s quite a sobering statistic but I absolutely understand it. I do believe that I will end up going that way. It’s just a matter of when really.

Of course, this was never about or an intention towards those those diagnosed or even undiagnosed who need special measures/adaptations put in place or the inability to work, socialise, more understanding etc.

What led to the thread is the push in accepting general poor and often abusive behaviour where the OP usually has posted about someone in their life who is consistently treating them poorly and with contempt, making them feel lesser and is constantly having their character diminished or ignored, to name a few examples. Most of the time, this is red flag central for abuse or CF of some sort but is now often questioned whether it is due to a suspected ND. It has previously been mentioned that it's not a one size fits all case but I have seen this on almost EVERY thread that an inkling of poor behaviour and a bad personality is referenced, as have many others who have commented on this thread.

We as a society are fighting for domestic abuse and personal boundaries/safety to be taken more seriously, but throwing the ND question up in the air in that situation is what I'm questioning and whether it is really necessary? Or if it perhaps is just making the fight harder for both abuse victims and those with ND to be seen and understood?

I absolutely understand why you said this and it's heartbreaking. I see lives of overwhelming difficulty quite often- minimised because one has learnt to hide well enough to fit into an NT world.

Then it is compounded by all of us in society- schools gaslight parents and kids, the Governments accusing people of making it up and self diagnosing. The utterly unaware and ignorant ill informed posts on MN. And yes even I probably feed into this in my own NT way of being.

It's quite a cruel fate from my perspective and I find it very difficult to watch this gaslight, smoke and mirrors crap coming from Government and perpetuated by the media. With one aim - to encourage people to willingly agree to punishing the vulnerable so the other end can keep the rewards.

This!

This is the reality for autistic people, along with bullying, being victims of crime, victims of ableism,the wrong medical treatment,zero reasonable adjustments anywhere, zero provision at school…..

Incidents like this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g019x7j53o

But do people or society care? No they do not. It seems to be becoming seemingly ok to ignore disability laws, to have zero understanding and to pick on the disability that is autism and what little that is there to protect. I really fear for my children.

@PineappleChicken here to talk if you ever want to, you can inbox me. I’m a survivor of bereaved by S.

Always here too Pineapple and totally get it. One of my dc has tried several times, we are battling for help with coping strategies and not feeling the need to mask characteristics she should be proud of .

Yes. I am aware this is going on all the time. It's devastating.

Yet, MN threads are dominated with sentiments that ' everyone thinks they're ND now innit', ' I fink ADHD is just used as an excuse '. ' my poor Jonny is getting beaten in class by autistic kids'.

Enough. It's not happening!

"my poor Jonny is getting beaten in class by autistic kids'.

Enough. It's not happening!"

I mean this has happened in my DCs class actually.
It's not the autistic kids fault. He absolutely should be more closely supervised if he's going to be in a mainstream class but there have been 2 occasions within the last year where he's been overwhelmed and just lost it at another kid. Last time it was because the kid had been "wobbling" his table. Now I wasn't there. I have no way of knowing whether the wobbler did it by mistake or on purpose to antagonise the kid with autism. But either way he got punched in the face and kicked more than once before the teacher could get in between the 2 of them.
And FWIW I am absolutely NOT blaming the autistic kid. I blame the lack of support he's currently getting.

So we’re gloss over the huge amount of data that shows how autistic children are more likely to be bullied.Some research shows it’s as much as 94%. Research also shows autistic people are far more likely to be victims of crime too. And then there is the bullying and abuse done by staff in residential medical and educational provision…..

Funny how there are never threads or concern about this.

@Shwish Ah that's so difficult 🙏 I am doing the thing I criticised and I'm using extremes. What I really should have said, is the sentiment I often see that Autistic kids are deliberately, systematically beating pupils and bullying ( as claimed on MN a few times) is not an accurate reflection of what's going on.

I have seen this example you give before and know it happens. It's gracious that you understand it and are aware in your thinking. It's something I'd be concerned about for my own Autistic child if he was subject to that from another child who was struggling. My child doesn't hurt people or do that but he does verbally argue back.

The system is not working really for all kids. It's disruptive and intimidating for those kids who can and living hell for those having meltdowns this severe.

I understand why there's little sympathy. I witnessed a meltdown like this by a pupil in my son's primary and all I felt was anger. Not right, but that's a natural reaction for the majority I do feel.

Most people don't realise that Government is forcing kids into mainstream and not adequately supporting schools to manage it.