To consider private school

[HowManyDucks]

I hesitated about putting this question to AIBU as I know it is a decisive issue on Mumsnet, but it is ultimately an AIBU so I've put my hard hat on.

I'm being very honest and am writing things that I would never say out loud. It's not humble brag. I am just trying to work out the best thing to do for DD (like every mum does).

Private school was not on my radar at all but I am a firm believer in parenting the child you have. I'm trying to work out whether sending to DD to a private school would actually be in her best interest or whether it is just trying to compensate for my own incredibly disappointing school experience.

Some context.
My brother was a maths whizz (getting As in a level maths and further maths age 14 without ever picking up a revision book). He never went to uni and 10 years after leaving school, works in Tesco. (Nothing wrong with that of course but so much wasted potential). I, on the other hand, was a bright (not exceptional like my brother) all rounder, think straight As at GCSE and A level. I was offered a music scholarship to a fancy private school but wasn't allowed to go. I resented this for a long time. I went to a bog standard secondary and hated every second of it. I would hate for DD to have to go through what I went though. Most of my classmates went into vocational jobs and apprenticeships after school instead of uni. I joined the military because I didn't this uni was for people from my background. So that's where I am coming from. I grew up in a single parent household, with an alcoholic mother where education was not prioritised. For her, private school was for posh people with more money than sense.

Fast forward to having DD. I am a single mum. DD is 13 months old. I'm getting ready to go back to work and so have been on the hunt for a nursery.

I understand that babies develop at different rates and that hitting milestones 's early doesn't correspond with intelligence. However, it is becoming increasingly difficult to hide how advanced my DD is and people are commenting a lot. She took her first steps at 7.5 months, walking confidently at 9. At 12 months had a vocabulary of 90+ words (only counting the words she used consistently and in context), could identify approx 10 shapes (like parallelogram and trapezium), she knows approx 20 letters of the alphabet (phonetically) and is pointing out letters when we are out and about. She can recognise some familiar words and is showing an interest in reading. She is excellent at following instructions, I talk to her like I would a five or six year old.
She is 13 months 🤦

After some recent threads about behaviour in primary schools i am increasingly worried about whether our local state schools would be best for her (not their fault but if course). Supporting SEND, managing behaviour, and helping all children achieve national average is a greater priority that stretching an able child. I live in London and moving is not an option. I am asking these questions now as local private schools have long waiting lists (some encourage parent s to register from birth).

I am in a position where I could afford private school for a couple of years. At the moment I am thinking of paying for her to attend a local private school with the view of applying for a scholarship place if she proves to be academically able in the future. I wouldn't be able to afford her whole schooling at a private school.

I appreciate my post is long so I will stop here but happy to answer any specific questions.

Final thing. I have no idea about how the private system works and am just starting to get my head around it. Id really appreciate to hear other people's experience (I know their are a lot of mumsnetters with children at private school).

On flexibility with curriculum - try to find a school that has a ‘support for learning’ department that takes children of high ability as well as those with more difficulty.

In the junior part of a ( very academic) private school I’m familiar with, kids with dyslexia etc leave the classroom for special sessions every day with support for learning - they are accompanied to that department by many gifted children who require more challenging work. This way , there is no ‘stigma’ for anyone as it’s completely normal for kids to stream out for appropriate work from appropriate specialist teachers. It’s good to see children being met at their level and all thriving.

I am at work so haven't had time to read the whole thread. I had a very advanced child - reading before school, huge vocabulary at a very early age, precocious ability with numbers etc. DH and I both went to private school all the way through and I panicked about him going to state - but my parents said not to get on the fees train if we didn't need to, and we have four children, so the costs were eye-watering.

At 7, on a whim, I put him in for a scholarship for a prestigious local prep and he won their top scholarship - the head told me I "have a duty to send us your son so he can be stretched and challenged". After a LOT of agonising, we decided that if he was that bright, he'd be ok in state and turned it down. We stuck with the local primary and he then went to state secondary (albeit a grammar school) and he is now at Cambridge. We used the money we would have spent on fees on extra enrichment stuff - chess clubs, maths challenges, museum trips, school trips etc to keep him entertained and occupied - I don't regret not paying for his education, but we are VERY lucky that our local schools are very good - whether comprehensive or state grammars, and people move into the town specifically for them.

At 13 months your child is still very little, although I do think that you 'know' if they are bright (DS' year 1 teacher told me he'd go to Oxbridge....!) but I think that if they are that bright, and they have the right support at home, that they will succeed without private education - it has become SO expensive now, that I think that unless I had a child who needed specialist sports or music tuition, that it wouldn't be worth the sacrifices - but I do accept that we are very lucky with our local schools.

Moving house to get into good schools AFTER the reception intake is a very risky idea. There might never be a place! You’d need to apply for reception so he moved 6 months before applications to have the best chance. Where I live ( and my kids go to school) there is over 100 kids on the waiting list for each year, people buy houses here just to get in but now they say don’t do that because it’s unlikely you’ll be able to start!

It’s the behaviour in secondary I’d be worried about, not so much primary.

I haven't read all the replies but this one stood out to me.

I have two kids in state schools in what is called a 'mixed catchment' so lots of children facing a lot of challenges. Almost to a person, anyone who was only considering private for some of the time has focussed on secondary school. I would say the experience at secondary school in my daughter's school versus her friends at primary school is so different it's hard to see the similarities. My daughter is dealing with violence and disruption and all sorts of chaos - and they only stream for maths in S1 so even if you equate streaming with better behaviour it only matters 4 times a week. The rest of the time there are all sorts of things going on, and even more going on in the hallways and outside of the school.

I personally am a huge proponent of state education and have no intention of doing anything differently, but if I was going to do one or the other I would absolutely focus on secondary school as so much of primary school is about learning to sit, line up, get organised, play nicely, etc. It's also hugely helpful to have friends in the neighbourhood and feel connected to where you live. By secondary school they can take themselves to school and to their friends houses so the world opens up for them.

Sorry OP do you really think they create individual curriculums for each child in the class? This is again an example of some expectation of private school that just isn’t realistic. I’ve been to both. They are basically the same.

Those kids are a tiny and ever decreasing minority. With the way things are going, I would be surprised if there are any bursaries left by the time your child is applying for secondary. I’m in zone 1 and the private prep schools here have zero diversity in terms of wealth. There are absolutely no bursaries. For private secondaries you’d be lucky to get a 10% music or sporting scholarship and that’s it.

Just wanted to mention a few things which should help you with your decision making

• Bursaries are disappearing from the private sector these days thanks to the VAT implementation (and several schools picking up a lot of the costs themselves and not passing them on fully to parents). Make your decisions based on no bursary/no scholarships in the future.

• Would your DC manage okay if you moved them from private to state in Y3 or later? Most DC will struggle to adapt (though there are exceptions). I turned down a grammar place for DC because they wouldn't survive in larger/busier classes after 8 years of private schooling. Some of their classmates did move to grammar though, but even they took a long time to adapt.

• Do not assume that private schooling will automatically stretch your child's abilities - it really depends on the teachers and is luck of the draw. You may be better off in the state sector than in a non-selective school (especially those who ask for the names to be placed on the waiting list at age 1/2 without knowing anything about a child's ability). If you have a selective school nearby, maybe apply there at 4+ or 7+. Bursaries used to be available at 7+ in some London schools but it looks like they have scrapped them this year.

If you’ve got an inkling re the possibility of neurodivergence, you should also think about saving for private testing. My county has actually closed the waiting list for assessments which must be illegal in some way but it is what it is. I’ve got friends paying £2k for private assessments for adhd as they’re at their wits end with no support. Even a bog standard dyslexia assessment is £500. Throw in some tutoring at £60 a pop and a fair old chunk of money is gone.

What suggests neurodivergence. Getting top grades from a disadvantaged background doesn’t scream ND. They may be but I’m not seeing anything in the OP to suggest they are.

I moved my daughter from state to private in year 3 - because in year 2 she had been diagnosed (privately as on the NHS the wait is 4 years in our area) with autism and ADHD and her academically excellent state primary was not willing to meet her social and emotional needs. Academically the move has been a total waste of money - she’s doing nothing more than she would in state, but emotionally it has been fantastic for her and I believe if she had remained at her former school she would now not be in school anymore.
It is obviously too early to tell at 13 months but a really bright child would be a good fit for a super selective grammar - and these are free . So maybe look at these when deciding where to move. There are bursaries available in prep schools - in my local area there is a foundation that offers up to 100% bursaries from year 3. Not common of course but they do exist. The well known schools tend to have more funds for this.

No, of course not. There is a difference between having to stick rigidly to a national curriculum and being guided by that curriculum, allowing flexibility for children to explore topics beyond the curriculum and those that interest them

Thank you for this solid and pragmatic advice. Especially the -make decision on the basis of no bursary & the point about waiting lists.

Thinking aloud here...
I'm leaning towards sending DD to a private nursery (as I am shocked that it is significantly cheaper for 8am-6pm care 5 days a week or month than the local state options!). My plan is to move but I realistically don't think that will happen before reception. In that case I would like to keep her at the private until I do move to an area with better schools.

IF she did receive a bursary, however, then I would stay put and work things out with housing (provided she was happy and settled)

As you say, the transition may be difficult. I have no way of knowing how well she will adapt. There is likely going to be a transition regardless - it's something we will have to face at the time.

Secondary is something I will need to think about closer to the time when I have a better idea of what kind of school would be the best fit for DD. But moving to an area with goods schools at least gives us more options.

Interesting the point about waiting lists. I honestly hadn't thought of that. The private schools I've looked at say they are selective (I had assumed academically selective). The way it work (as I understand it) is that nursery places are offered via a play assessment. Then the nursery intake automatically go up to the prep. There is an additional intake in year 1 and year 3 I think it is) but children need to sit entrance exams for these.

So I guess it's a kind of academically selective system. I am trying (out of curiosity) to understand why they do this.

That is simply not true though. As a PP said it is often the well known private schools that have the biggest bursary/scholarship provision. The schools I have looked at have published how many full bursary places are available for each intake.

@HowManyDucks when you mention bursaries, are you talking about prep schools? They are much much less common in preps than secondaries.

As to why they do this - most private schools are looking for (and parents are paying for) a particular cohort that is easiest for them to teach. At nursery level this basically means the kids who can separate from parents easily, sit on the carpet nicely, draw basic pictures and use scissors. It’s not academic selection as such though children with these qualities at 3-4 should be well set up to learn well.

They are businesses first and foremost so will want to entice people to join at nursery stage with the carrot that their child won’t then have to sit the tests or move schools later, so guaranteeing a few extra years of fees.

What happens next depends on the school’s structure and (again) financial incentives - eg a stand alone prep whose reputation depends on its leavers’ results will prep the kids intensively for 11+ (so very limited time for the enriching extra curriculars of the brochure) but an all through school that wants to hang on to the kids will do little to nothing, and may in fact spend swathes of time on “enrichment” such that the kids who want to sit exams for other schools have to pay (again) for tuition after school. Obviously parents don’t know how bright their kid will turn out to be (which is why your certainty at 13 months is amusing), or indeed what will suit them in other ways, so there is a lot of bet hedging and hence the movements at 7, 8, 11 and 13.

Your assumption that a bright child will be better served in a private nursery or prep as compared to a state one, in general terms, is wrong. London in particular is packed full of outstanding state primaries. You haven’t said your area but if you did people could help with pointers. You seem though to have decided that your child needs something special and that this can only be achieved by paying for it. This is of course what the private nurseries and preps tell you, but it doesn’t mean it’s right.

The private school option may look cheaper at first glance on the published fees but don’t forget to factor in :

• Deposits (not all are refundable)
• Care costs in the holidays (longer than state schools)
• check if half days are the norm for the first 1/2 term/term (and be aware that at some schools that is an afternoon start rather than a morning one so a logistical nightmare)
• Lunches/snacks/milk/juices
• uniform
• Additional wrap around costs to cover the out of hours costs (breakfast club/after school club) which are not part of the fees
• That there are actually spaces available as you get be nearer to the start date in the breakfast and after school clubs (which are sometimes subcontracted out to third party providers and may not be the school staff)
• that in the next two years those fees will be subject to an above inflation rise
• Your child must be potty trained before starting

Schools are academically selective for all of the reasons mentioned upthread by a number of posters - prep schools in London trade on final destinations at various intake points of their leavers. If your child is unlikely to pass the entrance exams to various schools traditionally fed by the prep (including their own if it is a through school) they will be removed. If it is a through school and your child does not possess an amazing talent (chess genius, grade 8 by the age of 8 on an instrument/whatever) which the school can then write about in PR then they are highly unlikely to be awarded any of the available scholarships (Schools are a business first and foremost and want to attract new customers not reduce the income already being paid by existing ones).

@HowManyDucksthey stick rigidly to the curriculum! I’ve just put two kids through prep and there was 3 years between them, they each did the same identical thing each year. This is a top national
award winning prep school.

we went to an outstanding state nursery, the facilities were amazing, there was a forest school, lots of nurturing activities, we really didn’t need private school until Juniors (year 3) age 7 is a common transition point. I should say there are no bursaries at prep. The fee have risen from 10k to 18k in 4 years (per child) it’s significant.

It just seems like you won’t be able to afford it?? If your financial circumstances change for the better as the years go on, then by all means send your DD to private school!

Private school sounds like it would suit her very well, but it just doesn’t sound like you can afford it, so it’s a bit of a non issue?

A few things:

Look at the primary schools in your area before making a decision. Read the Ofsted reports and find out if you’re in catchment for an Outstanding primary (CofE and Catholic ones often really good). As a single Mum it may be safer to do primary in state to allow you to save. Join local Facebook groups and other forums, go to the local schools open days and summer fetes etc now to get a feel for them all. Talk to local parents. Move house in the next two years in to a great school catchment if needs be.

Look at moving to a grammar school area: Kent, Buckinghamshire, Lincolnshire, parts of Birmingham and some random cities and towns like Salisbury, Poole etc still have grammars, also areas of south west London like Kingston. But not at the expense of staying near family support networks and trusted friends - more important for DD to be near family and you to have back up as a single Mum.

Do you have savings?

Behaviour in the lower years of most primaries is absolutely fine provided you’re not in a truly deprived area - and even then many, many schools are very well run and led. One of the few good things the Cameron Govt did was really raise school educational standards - if your DD is super bright she’ll thrive at state.

Please don’t reach for private because you think money equals better - it doesn’t always and often teaching in private schools is poorer than in state nowadays. Some really good prep schools with great music etc are worth paying for. Your local day independent school often isn’t. Eg I think Eton is still worth it - I don’t think the same is true for some local day schools where exam results are actually lower than our outstanding local comprehensive in a nice area.

Look at who the other parents are. At my DC’s primary loads of the other parents are hospital consultants, barristers, lecturers and senior civil servants - this impacts how well their children do.

Please don’t put yourself through hell paying £400k in school fees over the years to right the “wrong” of your upbringing - she’s not you, and may not want what you want. Never let your disappointment show.

Spend your time with her when she’s little doing enriching things: children’s shows at the theatre, join a library, take her to baby music groups, go to museums and galleries. But also have fun - she is a child, not a computer to be programmed.

In your shoes I’d find the best local primary I can and save and research excellent private secondaries or grammars.

If it helps, my DH is genius level intelligent - he went to underperforming catholic schools in a deprived part of the north west and ended up at Oxbridge and has a fantastic job. You don’t need to pay to get there.

Another thing to be aware of - my baby was very bright, really ahead, spoke early. Now he’s at school I’d say he’s top 1/3 of ability in class but not the very top. So much of it is personality driven and comes down to them.

Do you best for her, but don’t live through her and don’t think she can fix your past. That’s not fair.

Unfortunately it is the case. And many of us I’m sure on here have been involved in governance of schools as well as being parents. The most generous bursaries are given by the ‘big name’ schools indeed but right now a lot of those funds both in those and in the others are being used to provide support to families caught out by the introduction of VAT in the middle of an academic year. Bursaries are funded to a large degree by initial deposits being left once the child leaves the school. It might be the case that parents no longer do this now they are paying VAT because they can’t afford to do so. Result = less bursaries. I really don’t know of many prep places funded by bursaries and unfortunately once you have demonstrated that you can pay you will be expected to do so. Bursary applications are very rigorous. You might feel that you qualify but you may not. You might not get a whole fees award especially if you have managed to pay part fees.

On the point about diversity, with the possible exception of City of London, there is very little financial diversity in any meaningful numbers. And this is only possible because city provides support across a greater range of incomes. And they in turn are supported by the generational wealth of the livery companies.

I understand totally wanting to do your best by your DD but there is no point in dismissing what posters (many of whom have experienced private schools as a parent) are kindly pointing out to you. If you are insistent that you are doing this then I wish you all the best but please don’t spend years 1 and upwards feeling like you have either failed or your DD is missing out because you can’t afford to leave her in an environment you can’t afford and she has to leave.

@HowManyDucks

You keep dodging this question - why do you think your local state primaries are bad? Have you been to visit them?

The more you post, the more entrenched you become on private when it's obvious that you cannot afford it.
You would be better saving the money you would spend on private education to buy near a decent secondary school/ grammar.

Sending your DD to private primary for a couple of years then move her to state, possibly to the only school that has space is a very poor strategy.

Hi, thanks for the reply. I've completely taken on board what posters have said (if you read my earlier post) I'm not planning on sending DD to private primary, but am considering private nursery (because it's cheaper!) and possibly nursery (because the local schools are really not good).

@Pipsquiggle not dodging the question. Schools are rated as requires improvement/satisfactory (think a sea of red and amber on locrating 😅). There is one outstanding school which is just outside my catchment area. I have friends with children in different schools, who have had had a variety of different problems. I am currently living in a very disadvantaged area where lots of children arrive at school (through no fault of their own if course!!) very little English, there is a lot of behavioural issues. Friend has a daughter who can't write their name in year 3 and has been chasing for sen referral, school have been hopeless. The schools seem to manage these issues with varying degrees of success, but the socioeconomic problems are blatant and actually very sad. If you could see the area I don't think you'd be saying "how can you know the schools are bad?". Unfortunately I can't move straight away otherwise I would in a heartbeat.

I’ve just seen your update about currently renting but not having housing costs, is that right?

Assuming you stay in the military I’m guessing you’ll both still get free housing, but if you leave and need to pay rent - what then?

In your position I think I’d move to the catchment of outstanding schools and maybe grammars, and save any spare money you’ve got so that one day you can buy a flat of your own - that’d be far better security for you and DD long term.

@Pipsquiggle also the point remains, I am going to have to move when she is in (most likely) in year 1. So the issue of transfer is unavoidable regardless of whether she goes to state or private. Plus some of the private nurseries are more affordable than the state nurseries in my area for a full time place. :)

No I'm not currently renting and have no housing costs which is why I can afford to potentially do private now. However when I move I will have to rent and so private would not be an option. However if I moved I could go to an area with good state primaries and possibly grammars which would be fine (no problems there, not against good state l schools at all!), the plan would then be to save for a deposit. You've basically read my mind there. Where I currently am, however, is problematic. I would prefer to invest in private so DD has a good start at school and delay my deposit.