‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’ in schools is everyday sexism

[putyourshoesonnow]

To me the terms ‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’ are unequal because ‘Sir’ is a term of respect whilst ‘Miss’ has less gravitas as it has connotations of youth, juniority and marital status and can be seen as diminishing to adult women.

This has bugged me for a while, as I think it is exactly the wrong message that young people should be receiving in school.

A perfect alternative may not exist, but surely we can do better than this?

YABU - Sir and Miss are fine, no problem here
YANBU - Sir and Miss are too unequal and we should seek an alternative

Incidentally, when I talk to people in general, I often don't use their names at all, except perhaps at the beginning or end of a conversation. Is this rude? Calling somebody by their name every sentence sounds like something salesmen sales people do, especially with title + surname. I am reminded of the Narnia book "The Silver Chair", when Jill keeps addressing Aslan as "sir", because it sounds cheek to call him nothing.

@TheCountofMountingCrispBags I recall that advert. Clarke's Shoes. With her little brother Peter.

Perhaps they're afraid that Baroness Brady might mishear, and think they're calling her "a Karen".

(Sorry, I couldn't resist it!)

When I was at school in the 80s we addressed our teachers by their name. Ie Mr Smith, Mrs kitchen, miss Brown..

Personally, I've never cared enough to be bothered by it - children could call me Mrs 'Shetlands' or Miss.

Not to mention 'teacher' and having your arm tapped (by adults and children). 👀

Of course they are but you’ll never get MN to agree on that.

At my school we never used them, just the teachers’ normal titles - Mr, Mrs, Dr etc. Same at DD’s schools now. All private, don’t know if that makes a difference.

We are in the US and sir/ma’am is standard in our area, not just in schools but with children addressing adults in general.
I’m British, so it was a little jarring at first. But generally where I live, if it’s a teacher at school then it’s sir/ma’am, or if it’s another adult and the child either doesn’t know their name or doesn’t have an established relationship.
If the child knows the adult’s first name and there’s an established relationship there, it’s usually Miss or Mr First Name.
We have friends who are from the south, and I remember being really taken aback when we were out with them and their DC’s one day and their DS did something that warranted a telling off from his dad. Dad asked “Are we clear?” and the boy simply responded “Yeah”……dad’s eyebrows went up and he said “Excuse me?”, boy corrected himself and responded “Yes sir.”
It’s a lot more common here than I’ve ever heard in the U.K.!

When I was at school we addressed them by Mr/Ms/Mrs and their surname my kids school does too.

I find the Sir and Miss thing in English secondary schools very bizarre. DH (private school) and I (state school) both grew up in Scotland and always called our teacher Mr W, Dr X, Mrs Y or Miss Z. Not sure why English children can't do the same. My (English) kids disagree with me but the eldest is now at 6th form and calling her teachers by their first name which also bemuses me.

I just get called “teacher”. I don’t even work in a school 😂 but at a club I run.

At my DS primary and the attached secondary they call teachers by their first name and it works really well.

Wow, interesting to hear the different perspectives!

I think ‘Ma’am’ is more equal to ‘Sir’ so I would see that as an improvement even though I don’t love it. It seems that it is in use in some schools already and is widely used by the police and armed forces, so not too much of a leap to expand its use in schools.

I also like Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms + Name, but I can see that in a large school some students would find this very difficult.

I agree with the majority that Madam would be a hard sell and has alternative negative connotations!

I’m also intrigued by the view that ‘Miss’ is respected in its own right as a professional title - I like that thought and see some truth in it, but I’m not convinced that this is enough to stand up to the gravitas of Sir.

Yabu.

Same at my now adults sons school.

That is why we have Ms.

In a related historical context traditionally senior servants such as the cook and housekeeper were called 'Mrs X' as a mark of respect.

Still not the same as “Sir”, though.

YANBU, but I don't understand why staff are called anything other than their name {Mrs Smith, Dr Brown, Mr Jones, Miss Green, Ms White - or whatever they introduce themselves as.

I'm a teacher and have no issue with being called "Miss".

Taught for thirty years in both sectors UK. I get called Miss, Sir, Mum, Miss X, Mrs X, Really don't care so long as it's polite.

That may be your perception. For me both terms sit at exactly the same level of formality.

But they learn it through using those words every day - which is the issue!

@scalt it's true that most women teachers were unmarried before ww2 - same for the Civil Service I think . I've had many married colleagues who prefer to be Miss previous name at school, thus keeping their two identities separate (if they'd changed their surname, obv).

I don't think teachers were addressed as Miss at either school you mention. Darrel Rivers would have choked on her tinned peaches before calling Miss Grayling 'Miss'!