‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’ in schools is everyday sexism

[putyourshoesonnow]

To me the terms ‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’ are unequal because ‘Sir’ is a term of respect whilst ‘Miss’ has less gravitas as it has connotations of youth, juniority and marital status and can be seen as diminishing to adult women.

This has bugged me for a while, as I think it is exactly the wrong message that young people should be receiving in school.

A perfect alternative may not exist, but surely we can do better than this?

YABU - Sir and Miss are fine, no problem here
YANBU - Sir and Miss are too unequal and we should seek an alternative

It might not be disrespectful, but it is unequal and therefore sexist.

Maybe it’s been in use long enough that most teachers now don’t care. My late DM was very firm on the point and insisted on being addressed as Mrs Dragon (unfortunately not her real name) but then she was from a generation in which the inequalities between women teachers and male schoolmasters were all too real. The marriage bar wasn’t lifted until 1944, equal pay not until 1961 I think - and the it seems somewhat more in theory than practice, trying to find the date was quite hard among many indications that there’s still a very significant pay gap.

Maybe you don’t think history matters, but I’m not so sure.

The idea of a particular way of addressing teachers being a “sign of respect” is nonsense. I teach, and believe me students respect for you, or lack of it, has nothing to do with whether or not you’re called miss or sir.

Ma’am was the standard in my last school. Everywhere else has been Miss. Could not care less, frankly. We had a very similar conversation this week and we all, bar one, said we were happy with Miss. One divorced teacher says she insists on Ms, one insists on the full appellation of Mrs……. Ime, it’s pretty normal for students to use Miss. I think yabu.

Totally agree.

Doesn’t this stem from a time when people used to call their bosses Mr/Mrs/Miss? Which doesn’t happen any more so we may as well just scrap it and use first names

"Miss" for female teachers stemmed from a time when only unmarried women were allowed to be teachers. The "marriage bar" meant that employers would not hire married women to teach, and when a teacher married, she had to resign.

So the use is deeply sexist in its origin.

Again, too many names to remember in a large secondary including all the non-teaching staff.

But it should be equal. So all teachers are Miss and Mister or Ma'am and Sir. Or Teacher.

I really don’t want to be known by my first name. That’s my at home identity.
Many, many teachers on the thread have said we don’t mind ‘Miss’ and whatever the origin it isn’t used disrespectfully now.

I really don’t like Ma’am myself. I’m not an officer in the police/military, nor am I old.

I don’t see what’s wrong with people using the term of address they prefer.

Interestingly our languages department all go by Madam/Frau rather than Mademoiselle/Fraulein. But when address to get attention it’s still Miss (just as it’s still sir rather than the target language for the male teachers).

I’ve been called all sorts ! 😂
madam I didn’t really like because my mum called me a madam when I was naughty or I thought of a bordello madame

ive worked in a few places that do first names which I hated

honestly there are bigger fish to fry than the name I’m called which I dont think the kids give any thought to the unequal status

i am currently dealing with a sexist workplace and don’t get me started on Matt leave and women’s experience of the menopause in the workplace

I don’t think people used to just call their boss ‘Mister’ or ‘Missis’ without their surname.

Why not? My children call their teachers by their first names, doesn't seem to cause any problems.

I went to private school and we used names. Mr Heath, Miss Holmes etc.

I dont think I ever used Sir. Very old fashioned. I also think it's kind of rude not to use someone's name.

Because I’m their teacher not their friend. Some form of separation is good.

Meanwhile I'm in Maryland (border state) and there's no sir or ma'am at schools. It's all Mr and Ms Smith. Locally they seem to have switched from Mrs and Miss for women, to Ms for all women teachers. Some parents still teach their children to Sir and Ma'am people but my area has a more northern culture, and white northerners especially don't like it.

I grew up with sir and miss, I think I prefer Mr and Ms.

(in some American accents, Mrs gets pronounced Miz anyway, so this isn't always a problem)

"Miss" has less gravitas...

Why?

What's wrong with "Miss"? What makes a single woman (Miss) junior to a married woman (Mrs) or a Sir. People are supposed to be equal, no matter what their title.

I must say I’m still struggling with the idea that children can be expected the learn and remember the GCSE curriculum for up to 10 subjects but can’t be expected to remember the names of school staff.

The students who call me ‘Miss’ rather than Mrs Myname in the corridors and around the school are often not taught by me though. Why would they learn my name. But they might still need my help.
In a normal classroom situation Miss/Sir almost act as pronouns.
Regardless, as a teacher I don’t mind it. Many of the other teachers on here don’t mind it either. Our opinions also matter.

I've been a secondary maths teacher for 17 years and love being "Miss". Students genuinely use Sir and Miss equally and there is nothing nicer than hearing them say "thanks Miss" as they leave the classroom. They don't have to... it just gives me a spring in my step when I think they have enjoyed my lesson.

My son’s old school called female teachers Ma’am. That way it worked for Miss and Mrs teachers.

My kids school is "sir" and "miss" and I will also refer to them as that. I don't see "miss" as disrespectful - probably because marriage and the whole Mrs thing has no more weight to me and honestly I couldn't care less if somebody is married.

I wouldn't use madame because that is a term of disrespect "she's a right madame" and ma'am is American.

I'm probably wrong and feel like I should ask my kids teachers but miss for me is a sign of respect. And I am happy to be referred to as a "miss" and even if I was married would still probably refer to myself as a "miss"

Because they don't even meet most of them in the course of their day so need something generic if they encounter them. By year 13 they probably know most names but in year 7 they won't. Even by Year 13 they won't know the names of exam invigilators, I use this example because I was one.

I've lost the post saying Miss and Sir aren't an equivalent to medicine but they are.

In that, the convention is Miss and Mr Whoever for surgeons in their vocational roles.

That is to say regardless of marital, social or educational status, these are used. Many surgeons are otherwise Professor or Mrs or even Sir/ Dame.

Ok, Mr is more neutral in terms of age and marital status than Miss but that doesn't suggest superiority. If it does, the problem is with the one inferring it.

Ma'am is most often military or police in the UK. I think therefore not suitable in schools. It has a different usage in the US.

The main point is that society needs to grow up and respect women. Women don't have to do these gymnastics to try and avoid the problem of a sexist society. We should stand firm on these longstanding professional conventions that we have worked hard for.

Miss holds a lot of respect. Teachers on here are saying so. I'm a medic, not a surgeon, but I've worked with many who are Misses and happy with it.

When I was at school it was ma'am in my below bog standard comp.
My brief flirtation with teaching all female teachers were called miss.