‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’ in schools is everyday sexism

[putyourshoesonnow]

To me the terms ‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’ are unequal because ‘Sir’ is a term of respect whilst ‘Miss’ has less gravitas as it has connotations of youth, juniority and marital status and can be seen as diminishing to adult women.

This has bugged me for a while, as I think it is exactly the wrong message that young people should be receiving in school.

A perfect alternative may not exist, but surely we can do better than this?

YABU - Sir and Miss are fine, no problem here
YANBU - Sir and Miss are too unequal and we should seek an alternative

We never said Sir at school. Just Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms and name as appropriate/chosen title by teachers. Never used Sir/Miss in their own. My daughter is at primary now and the approach is the same.

I don’t know of any primary schools that insist on Sir or Miss, instead it’s Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms Jones. A lot of kids habitually call their teacher Miss but it’s not something the schools have told them to do. However, the only children who call male primary teachers Sir are new arrivals from India. My male colleagues are regularly called Miss by mistake or Miss…….ter as the children self-correct. In neither case are the kids being rude, they’ve just got so used to calling teachers Miss as most of their teachers are female.

At both my boarding school and private international school abroad, we addressed all staff by their Christian (first) names. I would not address a male as Sir nor a female as Ma'am or Madam. It always makes me cringe on the rare evenings I watch the Apprentice to the end and the leaving sap addresses Karen as Baroness Brady and Alan as Lord Sugar.

Never used Sir or Miss in any school I attended ot taught in

Doesn't seem to be a thing in Scotland.

When I was in primary school, about 100 years ago (it feels like) if another teacher entered your classroom all the pupils stood up and the boys saluted while the girls curtseyed while saying "Good morning Miss Whoever".

I work in a secondary school and it’s Sir and Miss to all staff, whereas at my DC’s primary school it’s Mr/Mrs/Miss Smith etc. Even some of the staff who don’t know me have called me Miss!

I asked about the Sir/Miss thing and was told it was so pupils didn’t have to bother learning your name- no idea if that’s the general consensus everywhere. I grew up in another country and all school staff were addressed by whatever title they went by ie Mrs Smith, Mr Smith - never heard of anyone in a school irl being called Sir/Miss before I moved to the UK.

I’m a teaching assistant in a primary school, being called ‘Miss’ doesn’t bother me in the slightest. The children are trying to be polite.
I think I would prefer Miss to Madam actually. I may be alone here by Madam feels a bit antiquated.

Miss is absolutely fine.

We don’t need to be offended over such minor things.

I’m afraid we’re heading down a slippery slope where it’s offensive to call people miss because now not everyone identifies with that gender or because it’s sexist.

No one I know who has been called miss in their job, has ever been offended by it because it is not said in a sexist way.

It’s as though your actively looking for a problem where there isn’t one

When I started at university, I asked what the protocol was for addressing members of staff. I was told that many academics are happy to be on first name terms, but if in doubt, to use their full name. The person I asked then added "But don't call anyone "sir" - it's embarrassing!"

My DH does tuition for GCSE and A-level, and says he finds it quite jarring when pupils call him "sir" all the time, and there are some who do it every sentence, especially from Asian cultures.

And as for "madam", isn't it sometimes an insult, as in calling someone "a madam"?

I went to a girls' school (state) and some previous headteacher had banned "miss" and "sir".

We called the teachers by their full names, e.g. "Miss Smith".

Miss and sir sound really weird to me, but it's just not what I'm used to.

I think is the same everywhere.

It is Mr X and Miss Y but people just say miss and sir for short.

Even staff members call each other miss and Sir sometimes too.

@scalt Yes, I work at a university and there's always a few first years who say "Thanks, miss," as a reflex 😄

I have to encourage them to use my first name.

I am in Ireland and my children address all teachers as ‘Teacher’.

In one of my children’s school they call teachers by their first name. At the start i thought it was a bit weird as not something i was used to - but actually it is no big deal at all.

You just tell them to call you Mrs/ Ms/ Miss surname. It's not difficult. If you can address each of them by their name, they can return the favour since there's only one of you and loads of them.

Any pupil calling me 'Miss' would be addressed as 'Child'. They quickly learn.
'Miss' is cringeworthy rather than sexist.

In my secondary school, most teachers didn't bother with this ritual beyond year 8, except in assembly, for the entrance of the Head. However, there was one teacher who insisted on it for all year groups, right up to year 13, and the "good morning everybody" routine. She wasn't well-liked.

At brothers' school (private day and boarding in Australia in the 90s), female teachers were very much a rarity, the standard address was "Sir". When they got a female form teacher they were flummoxed for about two minutes and then simply referred to her as Sir as well. I quite liked that as it took the gender differential out of the equation.

At all my schools we just called the teachers by their names - Mr Smith, Mrs Brown, whatever. I don't buy the argument that it's too difficult for kids to learn teachers' names.

Since my eldest started secondary I've noticed he'll routinely refer to male teachers as Sir (Sir said this. Sir said that) but female teachers will be Mrs X, Miss Y so he's clearly internalised some kind of idea about different levels of appropriateness in the titles.

@softlyfallsthesnow Any pupil calling me 'Miss' would be addressed as 'Child'. They quickly learn.
That's so brilliant!

I’ve thought this for years, even at school! I think it followed an A’level English language lesson that focussed on connotation/male positives/female negatives, e.g. sir = respectful, madam = brothel owner, Master’s degree = educated, mistress = bit in the side etc.

Miss is just silly - it should at least be Ms or Mx! It seems very ‘little girl’, whereas Sir in the real sense of the word denotes elitism/power.

And as for "madam", isn't it sometimes an insult, as in calling someone "a madam"?

Madam makes me think of brothels

@Snorlaxo - exactly. And over time, many words synonymous with females have been used like this, whereas the male equivalent has a much more highbrow meaning.

Absolutely everyday sexism to use Miss when we think about today’s environment.

I would've hated being called Madam when I was teaching.

It sounds so formal and like a title for old ladies.

Not sure my inner city kids, who often referred to me as 'fam' would've been too keen either.

I hate it, at my school we had enough wits to know the teachers names, and address them as Mr whatever, or Mrs or Miss whatever.

I wouldn’t have addressed them as Sir or Miss ( sexist )

But I did watch a film years ago, where a character had complained to another about addressing a teacher as Sir, as they were sons of gentlemen, and therefore the teacher was not their better.

It just stuck with me. 🤣😀

Going back to even earlier sexism, it's notable how in school stories from the 50s or earlier, such as the Chalet School or Mallory Towers, almost none of the female teachers are "Mrs", because they didn't usually work after they were married.

I’d rather be called ‘Miss’ than Ma’am or Madam.