Grandfather behaviour to granddaughter

[Stripesarethethingforme]

My Dad's behaviour towards my eldest daughter has started to worry me and I need some advice as I don't really have anyone I can talk to about this other than my husband who is also concerned.

My Dad asks my daughter to sit on his lap a lot - he wanted her to sit on his lap for over an hour this afternoon. Kept pulling her back in if she got off and asking her to hug him. He focuses all his attention on her and ignores his other grandchildren when she's there. He asks her to hug him a lot- for example this afternoon after having her sit in his lap for a really long time he was still asking her to come and hug him. She's six years old. It makes me deeply uncomfortable.

I found him giving her a foot massage after dinner this evening and saying how nice it was to be stroked. I'm really not happy about this but I'm not sure whether I'm projecting something that isn't there as I have a difficult relationship with my Dad. I've never liked him hugging me although I can't say exactly why, I just don't like it.

What would you do? Should I be concerned?

@Alwaysalert I have spoken to the man, the wife and the parents, that it is totally inappropriate, even if innocent the appearance of impropriety would stop most men.
The little girl said she doesn't mind because he is lonely, the mum said daughter likes the attention (reeks to me) The parents think it's nice for her to have a grandfather figure. I am the only person who has a problem with it or the only person to say it out loud. They think I am an awful person to even think it. I personally don't think teaching little girls to pander to old men for attention is healthy.
I have no idea if any action was taken when I reported my concerns a year ago because I am not entitled to update even if they visit, ironically because I am not family.
I don't know why the op and husband allow it to happen to their own daughter and are loathe to do or say anything despite op being triggered herself. I suspect if a friend of op said the behaviour was inappropriate, op and family would turn on them so fast it would make their head spin, as was my experience.

OP, I think your last response sounds decisive and confident, unlike before. I think you've listened and found your voice. This is great.

I can't help but wonder, will he turn his attention to another child? You will probably never know, but do you have a responsibility to at least pass on your concerns to others, so as to protect other children? I think you would be horrified if this behaviour escalated with a niece or a neighbour's child. It's something to consider but your mum is best placed to keep an eye on him. Have you been very open and honest when you spoke with her? Siblings? Do they suspect anything with anyone at any other time?

It's more of a rhetorical question and I'm not trying to place blame or pressure on you. I don't even know the answer. I do know the whole situation sounds horrific and I truly wish you the best.

Myself and two of my sisters were SA as children. Two of us developed bipolar and the third is an alcoholic. None of us have ever managed to achieve our full potential. I’m doing much better as I received some years of therapy. Did at least manage to work most of my life unlike my poor sister who has been sectioned multiple times. I told my Mother at the time and she did nothing. The abuser, my stepfather fortunately died when I was 13. We also all ended up in abusive relationships very young. I fortunately got away and married a nice man. I only told him after we had been married a decade.

Please cut contact with this abuser, the sitting on the lap and the feet touching and all that was exactly how it started with me.

I had barely any relationship with my Mother and though you say you don’t want to lose seeing her don’t risk your child. I will never forgive my Mother for allowing it to continue. The happiest day of my life was the day he died, how unbelievably tragic is that. Not the day I married or had children. I dropped out of University and it was directly linked to my past. I have done my level best but it has haunted me all my life and I’m nearly 60. So many of the people I met in therapy had been abused as children.

I don't understand what point your making.

I’m sorry why would you even let this man into your home? His presence alone clearly will make you all uncomfortable. But especially your young daughter. He’s already crossed a line. You shouldn’t have to say “New rule, don’t massage the children’s feet or force them to stay on your lap”

It should really be “You crossed a line that can’t be uncrossed and you shan’t be back inside this house. Mum, you can come whenever you like.”

You already don’t think he’s nice. I don’t see why you would ever pander to someone who made you so uncomfortable as a child and is now preying on your own children. I wouldn’t even want my children in his line of sight.

Trust your gut. And to an outsider this is majorly ringing alarm bells anyway!
Don't leave them alone. If it gets to be an issue then you take him aside and tell him he isn't acting appropriately. But personally, I'd be cutting him out of her life. See him yourself but she really doesn't have to. Priority is to protect her,not appease him.

It sounds like you've made some good decisions and are already acting on them. Prevention is everything at this point. Be prepared for some pushback but you are 100% doing the right thing by your daughter.

You’re doing the right thing, op.

The context of him being rude, unloving and generally unkind really highlights how his behaviour towards your daughter is not in keeping with his usual behaviour and screams grooming.

OP, get ready to be accused of having a dirty mind and being a troublemaker but stand your ground.
The rest fo the family won't want to even consider this and you shining a spotlight on it (even in a low key way) will probably be met with backlash.
I know this from experience.

You really need to be sure you can uphold these boundaries, because it's easy to say -but when actually in the presence of this man who emotionally abused your mum and you growing up, it'll be hard to do.

After all, neither you or your husband stepped in to make him let your dd go in that hour. And that's probably fear of him, fear of "making a scene", squishy/messed up boundaries from your childhood, fear of upsetting mum and so on.

It's really unlikely he'll quietly go along with the new boundaries.

He won't have a choice. He's OP's father so in the past had a certain amount of power. But he's now a grandfather and grandparents don't have rights in the same way.

He may not like it but given the OP has had one encounter, felt unsettled, asked for advice, talked to her husband who feels the same and like any normal parent has excellent instincts, I feel like he may have no choice in the matter.

The thing with difficult family members is you can really minimise the contact they have with your children simply by being busy, living far away and keeping visits short or in public places. And you can also warn the children in an age-appropriate way, not let them be alone with the child, and do nothing to nurture the relationship. It's sad but in this case I think it's really necessary.

He's OP's father so in the past had a certain amount of power. But he's now a grandfather and grandparents don't have rights in the same way.

I wasn't talking about rights. I was talking about the psychology of it. Family dynamics are hard to change, especially with an abusive person in the mix. Logically you're right, but in practice people can still find it hard to break those patterns of behaviour such as freezing up, appeasing, or resist being gaslit and incidents minimised.

It's just something op needs to factor in.

Yes I get that, it's hard to deal with people like this and not get dragged back into old patterns.

And there is also the reality of the situation - he can't access her child. He may act like he can, he may believe he can, he may assert to her that he can, but the facts are that he has no rights.

Knowing that will make it easier to hold strong. It sounded a bit like you were berating OP for not defending her child and telling her she wouldn't do so in the future and the point I was making was that she is already defending her child and will continue to do so.

I don't think I berated the OP. It's hard to explain why a person might find it hard to break a pattern and maintain boundaries without pointing out the pattern and why. But for the record, none of it's OP's fault, it's all on grandpa.

I agree and apart from the psychology it's also practicality. It's as simple as a loud noise from outside or someone saying here look at this and everyone's eyes automatically go towards the sound/sight and pervert cops a quick feel of a child unfortunate enough to be close enough for that to happen. Maybe the child then never mentions it to anyone out of awkwardness, fear, embarrassment, shame, shock etc and so nobody ever knows it happened. Maybe it's a one off or maybe future incidents occur, either way, in that moment the damage is done and can't be undone.

OP just in case it's never occurred to you, not liking someone is enough of a reason to not allow them into your home or choosing not to spend any time with the person, regardless of who they are.

This probably will go unnoticed, but something occurred to me after reading the posts after my first comment.

I wasn't separated from my abuser. I told my mum at around 8, the abuse continued until I was in my teens.
Because my mum chose not to speak to me about it, and not to confront my grandad about it, I felt like there was no point telling anyone anymore. So it's not only that your abuser is not seen as a risk, but if a child feels that other adults are aware of the behaviour and don't stop it then it must be normal or acceptable.

As teenager he gifted me a book in front of my best friend, it was a photographic book of people having sex. My friend told her parents, who took me home and told my mother. Nothing happened within my family that I was aware of, nothing happened externally.
When I was in my early twenties I found out that my nan was told about the book. She never said a word to me about it.
My mum, in my early 20s, told me that she had 'tried' to keep me away from him. And even asked me how I thought my brothers must have felt because he would give me money and gifts, but not them.

You can try and keep them separate, but can you keep that up for the next 10 years? Can you trust your family to keep them separate?
If any family member of mine was suspicious, my mum would not be allowed unsupervised contact because I know that she will protect appearances over the safety of children.

I wish we didn't have to go around pretending that there aren't a sizeable percentage of the population sexually abusing children. Not in my family, not in my village, in reality you have probably seen it in someone's bloody livingroom and just not understood what you were looking at.
My grandad would sexually assault me in the doorway of the dining room as family were filtering out! It's not all sneaking into bedrooms late at night.

Absolutely.

I know of someone who was regularly abused in a room full of people. In the living room, lights dimmed, sitting next to each other on the sofa, while the rest of the family watched the telly. It's not happening in every household, but it is more common than many people would prefer to believe.

@Bentoforthehorde that is very sad. I am so sorry that you went through that. It is unfortunately quite a common scenario. It is very generous of you to share your experience to highlight this.

I completely agree with you that it is counterproductive to pretend that there aren’t a great many predators of children around. They will do something as quick as a flash. They are drawn to children like moths to a flame so we do all have to be incredibly vigilant. It is very difficult for people without personal or professional experience to understand. It used to be said that 1 in 4 children would experience CSA at some point in their childhood.

@Stripesarethethingforme It’s great that you have a plan in place and present a united front. Do be aware though that your daughter could represent your father’s best opportunity of being close to a child. It may make him want to visit more often in order to increase the chances of you dropping your guard. He might restrict your mother coming alone as a way of pressuring you. You may have to take a stronger stance in the future.
Also, I hate to be the one to mention it, but do make sure that you are the only person taking photos. That way you can completely control that side of things.

I don't wish to be unkind but you really need to keep your daughter away from that man (monster). You will regret it if you let him anywhere near her ever again.

Tell him and your mum exactly why.

I wish I could turn back the clock and protect my daughter who is now an adult with bipolar and horrendous mental health issues.

Please please please keep her safe

Well done mama, it's not always easy putting in boundaries, but you did the right thing by checking in and clarifying your thoughts here. 🙂

You need to teach your daughter bodily autonomy. The hug at the door should be something she is not ever obliged to do. If your daughter says no, then she shouldn’t be forced or coerced. She must be rewarded for being strong enough to refuse. ie “Good girl! You are always allowed to say no to hugs or touching that you don’t want. I’m proud of you for speaking up!”

Be prepared. Your father is not going to like this one bit, and is likely to immediately challenge you repeatedly. How is your mother standing by, listening to your concerns and is still happy to stay with this abuser, and to continue to allow visits now knowing the risks?

Surely this tells you everything you need to know. She is an adult and has free will: and would rather put her gd at risk than do the right thing and keep her safe.

It is so dysfunctional op.

Your relationship with your mother should not trump your daughter’s safety.

Your mother has knowingly and willingly looked the other way and neglected her duty as a parent for decades, to remain with a man that is clearly very abusive. And now he is moving on to the next cycle of prey. Your child.

Your mother failed in her one duty to keep you safe, and she is just about to it again to your dd.

I don’t know how you can stand to be in the same room as him.

I hope I am wrong but you will end up with no choice but to go nc because he isn’t going to stop op. Men like him never do.

Look for solutions to see your mother without him, or you too will end up enabling and pandering to this man, by allowing access no matter how tightly monitored to continue..and no doubt you have all become desensitised to his emotional abuse which is also coming your daughter’s way. And so it goes on.

@Stripesarethethingformeplease watch this Oprah interview with the author of The Tell, from 32:28 to 33:34. In the small segment Oprah describes, in the words of men who admitted abusing their daughters, how they go through “The Plan”. It’s shockingly illuminating, and something all mums should watch.

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Here is the Oprah video.

Very powerful watch… I had to stop as was very triggering for me. Should be compulsory viewing for all parents to be.